ten year only hindu and initialy 20 year reservation andConstitutional assembly members who opposed reservation
Constitutional assembly members who opposed reservation
Amendment by thakur das bhrgav that
reservation will be only for ten
yea
r26 may 1949
Mr. President: Then there is the amendment which was moved by
Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava.
Pandit Balkrishna Sharma (United Provinces: General): I think the
mover accepts the amendment.
The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel: Yes, Sir, I accept the
amendment.
Mr. President: The question is;
"That the following be added to the Motion:-
"The provisions for
reservation of seats and nominations will last for a period of ten years from
the commencement of this Constitution
The amendment was adopted
Amendment by km munshi and shibban lal saxena that only hindu will get sc benefit
27 august 1947
Prof. Shibbban Lal Saksena (United Provinces: General) : Mr.
President Sir, my amendment is No. 85 and it says that the words
"scheduled castes" be deleted from the schedule. The purpose of the
amendment is that scheduled castes should not be classed as separate minority
but should be treated as an integral part of the Hindu community. My amendment
reads-
That from group C of the Schedule to para 1, the words "7
Scheduled castes" be deleted.
I would like to draw the attention of the Assembly to one
important declaration. It is this. It will be remembered that Mr. Jinnah has
often tried to include the Scheduled castes in the minorities; and on June 26,
1946, in a letter from Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad to Lord Wavell, and the latters
reply thereto, Lord Wavell is reported to have said:
"........ if any vacancy occurs among the seat, allotted to
the minorities, I shall naturally consult both the main parties before filling
it."
Mr. Jinnah has thus included the Scheduled Castes among the
minorities. But so far as we are concerned, we consider the Scheduled Castes as
belonging to Hindus, they are not a minority, they have also always formed part
of us. I am glad Mr. Munshi has brought up his amendment, which meets my
purpose and I therefore withdraw my amendment, in favour of his.
Shri K. M. Munshi (Bombay: General) : Sir, because amendment No.
85 has been moved by Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena I move the amendment standing in
my name:-
"That in amendment No. 85 of List III, dated 26th August
1947, the words "7. Scheduled Castes" be deleted and the following para.
be added after para :-
"1-A. The section of
the Hindu community referred to as Scheduled Castes as defined in Schedule I to
the Government of India Act, 1935, shall have the same rights and benefits
which are herein provided for minorities specified in the Schedule to para. 1
Mahaveer tyagi opposed
reservation
Mahaveer tyagi on 26 may 1949
Another point that I want to emphasise is about the
Scheduled Castes. Sir, originally when the scheduled castes were given separate
representation, Mahatma Gandhi had started his fast in protest. Now we have it
seems, accepted the idea; but when it was first introduced, everybody was
shocked. Nobody liked it and when Mahatma Gandhi gave his ultimatum of fast
unto death the Prime Minister of England addressed a letter to Gandhiji dated
September 8, 1933 in which he said:-
"Under the Government scheme the depressed
classed will remain part of the Hindu community and will vote with the Hindu
electorate on an equal footing but for the first twenty years, while still
remaining electorally part of the Hindu community, they will receive through a
limited number of special constituencies the means of safeguarding their rights
and interests that, we are convinced, is necessary under present
conditions."
You will see,
Sir, that when the idea of giving separate reservation to the scheduled castes
was first introduced, the intention was that it should last only for twenty
years. After that period they were expected to become absolutely one with the
Hindus. It was in the year 1933 and now it is 1949. So it is only a few years
less than twenty. According to the old scheme of the British Government
reservation for the Scheduled Castes should go in 1952, why are we now giving
it a further lease of ten years? Again, Sir, if we look at the list of
Scheduled Castes, there are so many included in it. We have had the experience
of separate reservation for Scheduled Castes. Fasts must be faced as they are.
The term "Scheduled Castes" is a fiction. Factually there is no such
thing as `Scheduled Castes'. There are some castes who are depressed, some
castes who are poor, some who are untouchables,some who are down-trodden. All
their names were collected from the various provinces and put into one category
"Scheduled Castes". In spite of the category being a fiction it has
been there for so many years. Let us look at the way these castes are
represented. There are hundreds of castes included in the List, but if you look
at their representation in every province you will find that only one or two
castes are represented. Those who have got predominance are mostly Chamars, I
would say. In the U.P. it is the case. It is the case in the Punjab also. I
want to know how the Koris or the Pernas or the Korwas or the Dumnas have
benefited by reservation. It is all a fiction, Sir. How is Dr. Ambedkar a
member of the Scheduled Castes? Is he illiterate? Is he ill-educated? Is he an
untouchable? Is he lacking in anything? He is the finest of the fine
intellectuals in India and still he is in the list of scheduled castes. Because
he is in the list and because he is a genius, he will perpetually be member and
also a Minister, he will always be their representative. Moreover, Sir, he has
lately married a Brahmin wife. He is a Brahmin by profession and also because
his in-laws are Brahmins. They are others like my Friend, Professor Yashwant
Rai. What does he lack? There are thousands of Brahmins and Kshatriyas who are
worse off than these friends belonging to the scheduled castes. So by the name
of Scheduled Caste, persons who are living a cheerful life, and a selected few
of these castes get benefit. This is no real representation. No caste ever gets
benefit out of this reservation. It is the individual or the family which gets
benefited. So, Sir, while we are doing away with representations and
reservations, while we are doing away for good with this caste system, why
should we allow it even for ten years? Does not our past experience show that
out of the hundred and one scheduled castes only a few get any representation?
Then why are so many castes linked with the chariot wheel of the Scheduled
Castes? They are simply voters; they do not get any benefit, and even if any
member of a caste in India comes up and gets elected how does the Community
benefit, I do not understand. I could understand if instead of castes, classes
were given reservations. To say that it should be a casteless society, I can
understand. Society can be casteless, but society cannot be class-less. So long
as the country does not decide to make the society class-less, classes must
exist and therefore, classes must have their representation. Sir, to make the
whole nation one party, I am afraid, will not be a practical idea. Minorities
must exist and must be provided for. There will be no peace so long as
minorities are not provided for. I do not believe in the minorities on
community basis, but minorities must exist on economic basis, on political
basis and on an ideological basis and those minorities must have protection. In
this sort of a wholesale decision, the minorities will get little
representation. I would suggest that in the place of the Scheduled Caste, the
landless labourers, the cobblers or those persons who do similar jobs and who
do not get enough to live, should be given special reservations. By allowing
caste representations, let us not re-inject the poisonous virus which the
Britisher has introduced into our body politic. I would suggest Sir, that
instead of the so called Scheduled Caste, minorities be protected, if you like,
on class basis. Let cobblers, washermen and similar other classes send their
representatives through reservations because they are the one who do not really
get any representation. As a matter of fact even after passing the motion which
Sardar Patel has put before us, I am afraid the tiller of the soil will not as
the conditions are get any representation. The villager is nowhere in the
picture. It is the urban citizen alone who gets the protection. It is not the
toilers of the soil but the soilers of toil who are benefited. Persons who
irrigate paper with black ink get the representation and not those who irrigate
the land. These literate mediocres create fear and do nothing productive, but
these tillers of the soil and producers of wealth are mostly those who are
illiterate and therefore they are deprived of their due share of
representation. Thus the nation is perpetually mis-represented by men of law,
literature and letters. The `Pen' rules over the `Plough'. The creators of
wealth are those who are without education and those persons will remain as
such. They were slaves before and will remain slaves today and even after your
passing this Constitution. If you want to help those down-trodden classes,
then, Sir, the best thing would be to keep some safeguards for them. We should
forge a law which would bring those illiterates into this House. As a matter of
fact there is hardly a single Kisan member of the Constituent Assembly of the
type of which 80 per cent of Kisans live in India. Unless those very Kisans come
here as they are, India will not be properly represented. I therefore, submit,
Sir, that the Scheduled Castes should now go and in place of Scheduled Caste,
the words "Scheduled classes" be substituted so that we may not
inadvertently perpetuate the communal slur on our Parliaments. In fact the
Untouchables had only some social disabilities. Now all the Governments have
passed enactments removing those social disabilities and among those persons
who come here as the representatives, I fear, there is not one who has any
social disability about him. The Scheduled Caste man can marry a Brahmin girl
and there is no disability. I say, Sir, in the name of Scheduled Castes a few
individuals are getting the benefit. Let the House dispassionately consider the
situation as it is, take advantage of the experience that we have gained for
the last so many years of what the `Scheduled Castes' have actually meant. And
then make up our mind as to whether or not we could substitute this communal
representation by giving reservations to classes who would mostly be the same
voters but with a better title and a healthier outlook.
Shri brajeshwar Prasad opposed reservation
14 october 1949
Shri Brajeshwar Prasad
: Let me explain. History is made. by,, the
wrongdoer and the oppressed. It was wrong on the part of the wronged to submit
to oppression. If objection is raised that they were not in a position to
organise, we also will say that it was due to lack;,-of political
consciousness, due to lack or social sense that these things were perpetrated,
It was the institution, it was society itself that was responsible. It was the
time spirit and the time spirit alone that was responsible for the wrong done
to the Scheduled Castes and the Tribals. The Castes Hindus are not :responsible
for any wrong. We, have also suffered, because Caste Hindus have, also. been
exploitrated by people living in this country and wrong have been committed
land perpetrated upon us. For centuries, India was under foreign subjection.
It, was subject to foreign intervention and Foreign oppressions from times
immemorial, The Castes Hindus have never flourished. It is wrongs, it is
atrocious to throw all blame and responsibility on the Caste Hindus, they have
been victims of circumstances. I cannot accept the proposition that the Caste
Hindus have perpetrated any wrong on anybody.
Nagappa
and ambedkar proposed that 35% sc vote
should be necessary to win a sc seat
S nagappa on 28 august 1947
Shri S. Nagappa: The amendment is as follows "That the following be added at the end of para. 6 'Provided that in the case of the Scheduled Castes the candidate before he is declared elected to the seat reserved for the Scheduled Castes, Shall have secured not less than 35 per cent. of the votes polled by the Scheduled Castes in the election to the reserved seat'."
Shri S. Nagappa: For instance there are four candidates that are seeking election to the reserved seats. Now let us take it there are 100 Scheduled Caste votes and let us assume all the 100 Scheduled Caste voters comes and vote. A gets 36 and B gets 35, this comes to 71. Only 29 is there for the other. Now you need not take that man at all into consideration who has polled only 29 per cent. Now again you need not have two elections. You can distribute two coloured papers to the voters come and vote. A gets 36 and B gets 35, this comes to 71. Only placed only for the Scheduled Caste candidate and if one gets more than 35 per cent, of the Scheduled Caste votes, or coloured votes, you need not take the other man into consideration at all.
That was opposed by several member citing is divisive idea
28 AUGUST 1947
Shrimati Dakshayani Velayudan (Madras: General)
Mr. President I find that for the Motion four Members have given
their names and first comes the name of the Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. I am
surprised to find that a Member who came in as result of a joint electorate
came forward to move this amendment whereas a member who, was all the while
standing, for separate electorates and for the so-called percentage is not to
be seen in the House to-day. If there was any sincerity in moving this amendment
we could have found the person who headed the list, and I do not know why
another member took up that responsibility. There may be some reason behind the
scene. ' The Mover of the amendment, Mr. Nagappa, said when they come to, the
Assemblies as a result ,of joint electorates they may not be coming With the
votes of the community and so they are not entitled to represent the community.
If Mr. Nagappa thinks that he has come here as a result of such an election,
the wisest and the best thing that he ought to do would be to withdraw his
candidature or his membership from this Assembly and the Provincial Assemblies
(Hear, hear). If anybody thinks that he is unfit to speak for the community
when he comes on the vote of the community or the vote of the people in general,
the best way to do service to the community is to disappear from the scene and
not to take part in any political activities whatsoever and I think Dr.
Ambedkar was wise enough to be absent on the occasion because he knew that this
is not going to be carried in the Assembly today or on any day. As the Chairman
of the, Minority Committee spoke yesterday these things were passed in the
committee by majority of votes and, whatever reasons that he may bring forward
here, it may not be carried out. So without wasting his time, he has gone for
his work as he is engaged in Cabinet work. Somebody has come forward with an
excuse that if this form of electorate exists, the real representatives of the
people will not be able to come. If we analyse the demand for a percentage of
the votes. of the community, we will come to the conclusion that it is nothing
but unadulterated separate electorates (Hear, hear). I must ask the Honourable
Members who moved the amendment whether they are giving any meaning to the votes
that. will be cast by the members of other communities. In practice, we have to
take into account only the votes that will be cast by the community. If a
candidate gets 34 per cent. and another date 35 per cent. of the votes of his
community, if the first candidate gets 200 cites from the general public and
the next candidate gets 100 votes from the general public, and if we take into
account the percentage of votes cast by the community, certainly the second
candidate Should be elected. Then it comes to this that there will be no
meaning to the votes cast by other communities though it amounts to double the
number of votes which the second candidate gets from the general people.
Then there is another reason for my opposing this amendment. Even
if the Harijans are given this percentage of votes, and this kind of electorate
system, the Harijans are not in a position to withstand the attractions that
they will have to face at the time of elections. So many parties can set up
candidates and they can purchase the Harijans and put up any candidate they
desire', and any candidate can come up in the assembly' and certainly he may
not represent the community though he may get percentage of votes that is
desired by this system. Along as the Scheduled Castes, or the Harijans, or by
whatever name they may be called, are economic slaves of other people, there is
no meaning demanding either separate electorates or joint electorates or any
other kind of electorates with this kind of percentage. (Cheers). Personally
speaking, I am not in favour of any kind of reservation in any place
whatsoever. (Hear, hear). Unfortunately, we had to accept all these things
because the British Imperialism has left some marks on us and we are always
feeling afraid of one another. So, we cannot. do away with separate
electorates. This joint electorate and reservation of seats also is a kind of
separate electorates But we have to put up with that evil because we think that
it is a necessary evil. I wanted to oppose this amendment because it will be
standing in our way and because when the system is put into actual working it.
will be standing in the way of Harijans, getting a correct ideology. It is lack
of correct ideology among Harijans that has led them to bring this sort of
amendment here. If they think that they can better their lot by standing apart
from the other communities, they are in the wrong. They can do better by
joining with the majority community and not depending on the votes of their
own, community. I must assure the Mover of the amendment that the Harijans are
not going to gain anything. if you get this sort of electorate system. So I
oppose I this amendment and I hope that nobody' in this House will support the
amendment. (Cheers.) (Many Honourable Members rose to speak.) Mr. President: I
have got requests from a very large number of Members to speak. on this
28 AUGUST 1947
Mr. H. J. Khandekar:
[Mr. President, Sir, I stand to oppose the amendment which has been placed before you by my friend Mr. Nagappa. This amendment stands in the name of four Members. The first name is that of Dr. Ambedkar, and you all know that from the time of Vie Second Round Table Conference till the Minority Sub-Committee, of the Advisory Committee assembled, he relinquished the demand for joint electorates and continued the demand for separate electorates. On the question of this demand his message to all Harijans of his country, who belonged to his party, went to the extent that they were not even Hindus that they wished to have a colony separate from the Hindus, that they were not within the fold of Hindu religion, and it was for this reason that they desired separate electorates. This thing has been going on in the country for the-last fifteen years with the result that a sort of discord has been created between Caste Hindus and Harijans of Dr. Ambedkar's party, and it- has gone to the extent that Harijans of Ambedkar party do not wish to converse with Hindus. But I feel happy to state that when this matter relating to joint and separate electorates came-Up before the Minority Sub-Committee
It has come to my notice that our Muslim brothers, who in this
country are about 3 crores, have got and are going to get on the report of the
Advisory Committee all the facilities which they should get. Even
-------------------------------------------------------- *[English
translation of Hindustani speech.
then they say that they should get percentage of votes in order to
enable them to elect their representatives. Once again, my friend Mr. Nagappa
too, who is an ally of Dr. Ambedkar and is dancing to his tune on some
expectations, says the same thing, i.e., that it is in this way alone that our
true representatives will be chosen. I want to ask these brothers, what is the
meaning of a true representative ? I want to cite the example of this Assembly.
If my friends are not true representatives of Harijans, if Kazis are not here
as true representatives of Muslims then, what will happen to this Assembly ? If
these honest Muslim brothers shout "Jinnah Zindabad", we shout
"Bharat-Mata-ki-jai" or other slogans and such sort of pin pricks
continue, what will be the result ? I would like to ask Mr. Nagappa and Kazi
Sahib, who will suffer then, the majority or the minority ? Any declaration of
this sort is most improper and therefore I do not agree with the amendment of
Mr. Nagappa.
Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. Nagappa the Harijans will permanently remain
Harijans and their position would gradually deteriorate. There are sub-castes
within castes. There are several sub-castes among Harijans. In fact Harijans
are not a part of any community but are spread. throughout India in 132
sub-castes. If percentage of 35 is passed, the 3 per cent. "Chamars"
who live in Nagpur will not come. within the orbit of this election. If
election is fought community-wise then "Mahars" who are 80 per cent.
will get 35 per cent, votes. Therefore "Chamars", "Bhangis"
and the other sub-castes will.not be able to return their representatives in
elections because they are in minority among Harijans. In that case only the
'Mahars', to which section Dr. Ambedker and I belong and which has a
predominating majority in Bombay and Nagpur, will capture all the mats of the'
Harijans in those provinces and other Harijans will get no seat at all.
Besides, I have to request Mr. Nagappa to withdraw the amendment.
the reason being that contrary to his belief the percentage of votes is not in
favour of Harijans. Harijans will not benefit by it, in- fact it would be very
bad (for them). Today we have achieved freedom for this country. We the
inhabitants of this country have become its masters. Under than circumstances,
if we do not take the majority community into confidence, and if the majority
community does not take us to its confidence, then the government of this
country cannot go on. For preserving peace in the country I have to request Mr.
Nagappa to kindly withdraw the amendment.
Friends, only a few days back we the Hindus, the Muslims, the
Sikhs, the Christian, the Parsis and the Harijans all acclaimed with one'voice
that we are one nation. We all gave our respectful salute to this tricolour. It
would be a pity, if today we put in this amendment which seeks separate
electorates.] Shrimati Renuka Ray (West Bengal: General): Sir, I rise to oppose
this last amendment. The report of the Advisory Committee shows very clearly
that its authors have done their utmost to satisfy all elements in the country.
In fact, Sir, if the report has erred it has erred in the direction of
over-generosity to the so-called minorities. In order to allay suspicion and
distrust and to come to an agreed solution it has given every consideration to
those who are swayed by communal and religious considerations even to the
sacrifice of national interests. After all Sir, it is not a question of
minorities and majorities on a religious basis that we should consider in a
democratic secular State. We have agreed to the reservation of seats just for
the time being for the next ten years to allow those who cannot think of
themselves in terms of "Indians" to adjust themselves over this
period. I am surprised that the Mover of this amendment should have persisted
today in bringing it forward. After the stirring appeal that was made by Sardar
Patel and the very cogent and comprehensive arguments put forward by Pandit
Pant to show ',,hat separate electorates are not only discordant and jarring to
national interests but against the interests of the very communities for which
they are intended, I thought he would not have pressed this amendment.
It is a back door method of bringing in separate electorates,
which the House did not accept yesterday. Sir, we have stood aside helplessly
while artificially this problem. of religious differences--an echo of medieval
times, has been fostered and nurtured and enhanced by tile method of political
devices such as separate electorates in order to serve the interests of our
alien rulers.
Today we see as a result our country divided and provinces like my
own dismembered We see that many who have made sacrifices, in the struggle for
the freedom of India cannot be citizens; of India today. We have learnt indeed
a bitter lesson. We have submitted to all this so that at least in., the rest
of India that remains with us now we may go ahead in forming a democratic
secular State-without bringing in religion to cloud the issue Religion is a
personal matter. Religious differences might have been exploited as a political
expendient by the British but there Is no room for that in the India of today,
Six. the problem, that Faces us is not a problem of minorities or of majorities
on a religious basis. The problem that faces us is the problem of the vast
majority in the country irrespective of religion, the majority who today are
surrounded by ignorance and ill-health, hunger and want. It is they who are the
backward sections of the, community and who are the majority at the same time.
It is their problem that we have to take up. If we want to make the Objectives
Resolution that this House has passed and the Fundamental Rights that have been
laid down, a living reality it is this problem that we have. got to tackle. We
cannot allow any subtle devices by the back door such as restricted separate
electorates to sidetrack us now from the main issue. We cannot expect those who
are backward to function and participate as citizens with equal rights unless
we take steps to make them conscious of their rights, By all means let us do
all that we can to help their development through every means In our power, and
make such provision in the constitution. But a separatist tendency on the basis
of religion is something that I do not think we
-------------------------------------------------------- *English translation
of Hindustani speech.
can tolerate any longer. We have never stood nor do 'we stand
today for Hindu domination; we do not want that Hindus as such as a religious
community shall override any other interests. But 'We' do want that India's
interests shall be paramount, that the interests of no special community shall
stand in the way. whether it is a majority or a minority religious community.
Sir, I hope that this House will throw out this amendment and that we shall be
able to go ahead until we are able to find a solution for the real problems
that confront us, so that India can take her proper place in the comity of
nations; so that in accordance with the cultural heritage which is ours,
enriched by the variety of the cultures, that have found a home in this
country, we will be enabled to play an effective part in the harmonious
development of the world as a whole.
Finaly sardar patel condemned this idea of ambedkar and nagappa
28 august 1947
To the Scheduled Caste friends, I also appeal:
"Let us forget what Dr. Ambedkar or Ms group have done. Let us forget what
you did. You have very nearly escaped partition of the country again on your
lines. You have seen the result of separate electorates in Bombay, that when
the greatest benefactor of your community came to Bombay to stay in bhangi
quarters it was your people who tried to stone his quarters. What was it ? It
was again the result of this poison, and therefore I resist this only because I
feel that the vast majority of the Hindu population wish you well.. Without
them where will you he ? Therefore, secure their confidence and forget that you
are a Scheduled Caste. I do not understand how Mr. Khandekar is a Scheduled
Caste man. If he and I were to go outside India, nobody will find out whether
he is a Scheduled Caste man or I am a Scheduled Caste man. There is no
Scheduled Caste between us. So those representatives of the Scheduled Caste
must know that the Scheduled Caste has to be effaced altogether from our
society, and if it is to be effaced, those who have ceased to be untouchables
and sit amongst us have to forget that they are untouchables or else if they
carry this inferiority complex, they will not be able to serve their community.
They will only be able to serve their community by feeling now that they are
with us They are no more Scheduled Castes and therefore they must change their
manners and I appeal to them also to have no breach between them and the other
group of Scheduled Castes. There are groups amongst themselves, but everyone
tries according to his own light. We are now to begin again. So let us forget
these sections and cross-sections and let us stand as one, and
When sardar became harsh nagappa withdrew his amendment
28 august 1947
Mr. President: I have first to put the amendment of Mr. Nagappa.
Shri S. Nagappa: I do not press my amendment. I withdraw it.
Mr. President: Does the House give him leave to withdraw his
amendment ?
Honourable Members: Yes.
The amendment was, by leave of the Assembly, withdrawn.
14 october 1949 brajeshwar prasad
Shri Brajeshwar Prasad
: Let me explain. History is made. by,, the
wrongdoer and the oppressed. It was wrong on the part of the wronged to submit
to oppression. If objection is raised that they were not in a position to organise,
we also will say that it was due to lack;,-of political consciousness, due to
lack or social sense that these things were perpetrated, It was the
institution, it was society itself that was responsible. It was the time spirit
and the time spirit alone that responsible
for the wrong done to the Scheduled Castes and the Tribals. The Castes Hindus
are not :responsible for any wrong. We, have also suffered, because Caste
Hindus have, also. been exploitrated by people living in this country and wrong
have been committed land perpetrated upon us. For centuries, India was under
foreign subjection. It, was subject to foreign intervention and Foreign
oppressions from times immemorial, The Castes Hindus have never flourished. It
is wrongs, it is atrocious to throw all blame and responsibility on the Caste
Hindus, they have been victims of circumstances. I cannot accept the
proposition that the Caste Hindus have perpetrated any wrong on anybody.
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