harijan leader and other

27 august 1947 pillai

satisfaction of the majority and minority communities of this land. The document that has been produced by the Advisory Committee, I consider to be the Magna Charta for the welfare of the Harijans of this land. Sir, as has been previously said by my friend, it-was due to the third man residing in this country that brought out several minority communities. I do admit that, but, Sir, it was given to Mahatma Gandhi as a great Avathar to find the disabilities of a section of the Hindus, namely, depressed classes known by various names, to come to their rescue and to take that great epoch-making fast which evoked all the Caste Hindus in the whole realm of India to think what is 'Untouchables', what is 'Depressed Classes', what is, 'Scheduled Castes' and what should be done for them. It was that Poona Pact to which you yourself have been a signatory along with me and Dr. Ambedkar, that produced a great awakening in this country. Then, Sir, one question was in the mind of everybody, whether the Poona Pact will show signs of a change of heart by caste Hindus in this country. Today I may assure you, Sir, that that change has come, though not full 100 per cent, at least more than 50 per cent. I may give you instances here. The very inclusion of Dr. Ambedkar in the present Dominion Cabinet is a change of heart of the Caste Hindus that the Harijans are not any more to be neglected. In my own Province, Sir, I may tell you the former Premier, Mr. Prakasam, has made a provision of a crore of rupees for the amelioration of the 'condition of the Depressed Classes (Hear, hear) and the present Premier Mr. Omandur Ramaswami Reddiar has set up a big Committee to investigate and bring a 5-year plan to ameliorate the condition of the Depressed Classes.

Now, Sir, coming to the very proposition of the consideration of this Report, I may say that any constitution that is made for the 300 millions of this country must have proper safeguards. Some may be thinking in their hearts whether they are not a minority of this land. Specially, Sir, the Untouchables who form one-sixth of the population of this subcontinent are a minority community, because their social, political and educational advancement is in a very low state. Sir, after Poona Pact We are coming to the second stage. Actually this. is the second stage because the untouchables, the scheduled castes are given certain facilities according to this report that has been presented in this House. One great point, Sir, which I would like to tell this House is ,that we got rid of the harmful mode of election by separate electorates. It has been buried seven fathom deep, never more to rise in bur country. The conditions that were obtaining in the various provinces were the real cause for introducing the system of separate electorates. The Poona Pact gave us both the separate and joint electorates but now we have advised according to this report that has been presented here that the Depressed Classes are doing to enjoy joint electorates. It is hoped. Sir, that, in the great Union that we are all envisaging that this country will become in the years to come,-joint electorates will give equal opportunity. for the Caste Hindus and the Minority communities to come together and work together and produce a better India. Sir, now there, is a reservation of seats on population basis. This is a rightful claim, Sir, of the Depressed Classes who form the tillers of the soil and hewers of wood that they must have equal voice, in the administration of the land. Moreover, due to their economic condition it is not possible for them to contest the unreserved seats and it is a good augury on the part of the Advisory Committee to come with this important recommendation that all the minority communities besides their having the reservation in the various provincial legislatures, will also have the right to contest seats in the unreserved seats. This forms a very good augury that hereafter both the Caste Hindus and the Harijans, that is the Scheduled Castes will go hand in hand so that whatever reform that may be brought to this land or in the Acts that may be brought before the Assembly and for the welfare of the country will be one accepted by all communities. Moreover this clause, allowing the minorities to contest the unreserved seats, shows the goodwill the majority communities are having towards the minority communities.

Much has been said about the representation of minorities in the Cabinet. I am one of those, Sir, who believe in political power for the elevation of the weaker sections of our land. It is by holding offices that these people are bound to come in contact with these unfortunate minority communities and see for themselves what should be done to elevate them. if I plead that there ought to be proper representation of these minorities in the Cabinet, I do not mean, Sir, that the Cabinets will become polluted or it win become inefficient but equal opportunity must be given. Once you give reservation an population basis, I also claim, Sir, that representation in the Cabinet also must be in that proportion. Sir, events have shown in this country that the members that have been drawn from Scheduled Castes to various offices as Ministers and Speakers of the Assembly have proved equally good in the discharge of their duties. Let there be nothing in the minds of the majority communities that those who were chosen from these communities for high offices will not be efficient. I feel that a convention has to be created according to the 1935 Act, as recommended in the Report. I am sure that the goodwill of the majority communities will always be there to see that those weaklings,-the minority communities, are well represented in the Cabinets. Sir, in the matter of services, I earnestly request that everything must be done to these minority communities so that they may have their quota in the services of this great land. Often it is said though the Depressed Classes have the required qualification, under some pretext or other they are not given chances in the services. I wish, Sir, after this report has been accepted by the Constituent Assembly, those majority communities who will have the ruling say in the matter will see that the claims of the Scheduled Castes will not be forgotten. I know-as a matter of fact to start with, the present Dominion Cabinet have already issued an executive order setting aside 12 1/2 per cent and 16 1/2 per cent for the Scheduled Castes both in the competitive and non-competitive services. This is a very good augury and Iam sure the change of heart will be followed further and proper quota for the representation of the Scheduled Castes in the services will be maintained.

Coming to the conclusion, Sir, the report envisages creation of a Statutory Commission and also Officers in the provinces to investigate and see what are the real things that are keeping these people backward in all the social, economic and educational spheres and I welcome this because this will go a long way for this Commission and also the Officers to know for themselves what are the difficulties of the Scheduled Castes and during the next 10 years do such things, so that after the 10th year we, the Scheduled Castes may not ask for reservations either in the provincial legislatures or in any of these things. It is up to the majority community to see that justice is done so that these minorities may rise in the educational and social sphere so that they may take equal share in the administration of this great land. Sir, there is a fear in the minds of some of my friends, especially the Scheduled Castes. that the Hindus are getting into power and that Hindu Raj is coming into force and they I may introduce the Varnashrama that was obtaining years back, again to' harass the Harijans. I may tell such friends, as we see things, the Varnashrama Dharma may be applied in a different sense-not in a sense that was obtaining years before-and I am sure this report will be accepted unanimously in this House and any amendments that may be brought may not disfigure the very good report that --has been produced by my Honourable friend Sardar Vallabhbhai Patelji.

30 november 1948

Shri P. Kakkan (Madras: General): Mr. Vice-President,Sir, I am very glad to support article 10. The poor Harijancandidates hitherto did not get proper appointments inGovernment services. The higher officers selected only theirown people, but not the Harijans. Sir, even in the matter ofpromotions, we did not get justice. The Government canexpect necessary qualifications or personality from theHarijans, but not merit. If you take merit alone intoaccount, the Harijans cannot come forward. I say in this House that the Government must take special steps for thereservation of appointments for the Harijans for some years.I expect that the Government will take the necessary stepsto give more appointments in Police and Military servicesalso. For example, in Kashmir the poor Harijans are fightingwith great vigour. I say in this House that the Harijansmust be given more jobs in this Government and be encouragedby the Government. With these few words, finish my speech,Sir.

30 november 1948

Shri V. I. Muniswamy Pillay: Mr. Vice-President, Sir,in the first two clauses of article 10, it has been madeclear that all citizens will have a general right for theservices, but when we come to clause (3), by putting theword `backward' which has already been pointed out by one of the honourable members, it has not been defined properly. Sothis throws me in confusion, whether the communities thatwere left out early in the administration for their due share have been provided for. Sir, in the great upheaval of making aConstitution for this country, I feel that the communitiesthat have not enjoyed the loaves and fishes of the servicesshould not be left out. It is for this purpose, I gavenotice of an amendment and a further amendment signed bymore than fifty members has been presented to this House,but for reasons well-known to you, Sir, I could not movethat amendment. But I wish to make it clear that unlessthere is an assurance that these communities--I speciallymean the Scheduled castes--are given a chance, unless thereis an assurance that these communities will at all times betaken into account and given enough and more chances inappointments, their uplift will still stand over. The otherday, Sir, our Honourable Deputy Premier, Sardar Patel, hasclearly said that not only justice must be done to theHarijans, but their case must be treated with generosity. It is in that view and spirit I request that a clear indicationshould be given by this House that the interests of theScheduled Castes will be looked after. Sir, some honourableMembers feel that reservation is not necessary. I think thisis unwholesome thinking, because so long as the communalcanker remains in the body politic, I feel there will becommunities coming up for reservation; but the case of theScheduled Caste is not pleaded on a matter of communalism,because they have been left in the lurch and due to theirlack of social, economic and educational advancement foryears and decades it is necessary, and I also feel thattheir case must be presented in this House vehemently, sothat we may get justice at all times. At the same time I maytell this House that it is not the object of any of theleaders of the Harijan community to perpetuate the communalbogey in this land for ever, but so long as they remain sobackward in getting admission into the services, it ishighly necessary that they must be given some protection.Sir, in the past, the Government of India had made provisionexperiencing their inadequacy in the services; and even inmy own province the Government of Madras have issued acommunal G. O. and thereby they have given chances for theHarijans. Apart from that all those people who have beenrecruited from the Scheduled Castes have proved worthy of the choice. If I may say so, Sir, even in the Military, weknow that in Kashmir they have played their part mostefficiently and the very existence of the Chairman of theDrafting Committee here shows the ability that the Scheduled castes posses.

Shri T. Channiah (Mysore): Mr. Vice-President, Sir, theretention of the word `backward' in clause (3) of article 10has created some doubt among honourable members from theMadras province. It is a fact, of course, Sir, that the word`backward' has not been specifically defined i

30 november 1948

Shri R. M. Nalavade (Bombay: General): Mr. Vice-President, Sir, I am very glad to express the support of thedepressed classes to article 10 which is now underdiscussion. In this article, particularly in clause (3)there is provision made for reservation in the services for the backward classes. But the words backward classes' are sovague that they could be interpreted in such a way as toinclude so many classes which are even educationallyadvanced. They are found mentioned in the list of backwardclasses. If the words `Scheduled Castes' might have beenused it would have been easier for the depressed classes toget adequate representation in the services. Our experiencein the provinces, though there are provisions forreservation in the services, is bitter. Even though thedepressed classes are educated and qualified, they are notgiven chances of employment under the ProvincialGovernments. Now that we have provided for this in the Constitution itself, there is no fear for the Scheduled castes. According to this clause we can be adequatelyrepresented in the provincial as well as in the Centralservices. I therefore support this clause on behalf of thedepressed classes.

30 november 1948

Dr. Dharam Prakash (United Provinces: General): *[Mr.Vice-President, it is an undoubted fact that "backward"class has not been defined so far and there is nopossibility of its being defined in the near future. In factthere is no community which does not have a section ofpeople which is backward, whether economically oreducationally or socially. Thus there are backward people inevery community. Personally I believe that if there is to beany reservation for backward classes in the services it isvery necessary to see as to what is the present position andwhat is to be the future of a particular class which hasbeen backward for centuries, whether religiously oreconomically or socially. This view needs carefulconsideration.

The first objectionable feature of this clause is thatit can be instrumental in bringing about a great crisis evenin the present circumstances. Every honourable Member knowsthat our national government has inherited an administrativemachinery which always had a very narrow communal,provincial or religious outlook. Even now it is anundeniable fact that whenever the question of reservation inservices arises, the people of any province holding amajor ity of posts or the person holding any office are ledby provincial or individual interests in makingappointments. If the person concerned belongs to theprovince of the officer he is favoured from the provincialpoint of view. If he belongs to his community, he isfavoured from the communal point of view and if he belongsto his caste, sub-caste or section, he is favoured from thatpoint of view. The officer does not take into considerationthe merit of the candidate but only sees whether he canserve his interest. Therefore he encourages such peoplealone to join the services. It cannot be expected of thismachinery of the old pattern, which is moving at its presentspeed with great effort, that it will act impartially inmaking appointments to the services. This is a great dangerand to remove it, I think, it is necessary to clarifyimpartially

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*[] Translation of Hindustani speech.

as to who are the backward classes. This may remove thedifficulty. The atmosphere in the country today is such ascompels us to demand reservation not in the services butalso in the Legislatures. Otherwise I am of the opinion that in a country, which has become free and the constitution ofwhich is being framed with full freedom, there is nonecessity for reservation. But the great difficulty whichforces us to make a demand for reservation is that there isno such generosity and impartiality in our society as asociety needs for its welfare nor is there any possibilityof its being there in the near future. Therefore, as it hasbeen suggested by the amendment, I submit that the words`backward class' should be substituted by `depressed class'or `scheduled class' because the latter have a definitemeaning. Among the scheduled castes have been included anumber of those classes which are accepted by all to be`backward. Therefore I support this amendment in the formthat the words `backward class' should be substituted by the words `scheduled caste.' I think that reservation inservices too is necessary for them for some time. OtherwiseI do not even like to have any reservation in the legislatures. I personally hold the view that in this freecountry it is not proper to make reservation for Hindus,Muslims, Christians and Sikhs on the ground that they areminor ities. But in so far as that section of Hindus isconcerned who are called Harijans, and they are reallybackward,--it appears to be appropriate that there should bereservation for some time. That too should be for some timeonly. When they reach the same level of culture as othersections of the population have, I would be the first personto oppose any reservation whatsoever for them. So long asthey do not attain that position, I favour reservation.Therefore, I submit that with the addition of these wordsreservation in services will prove to be useful instead ofbeing harmful.]

30 november 1948

Shri Chandrika Ram (Bihar: General): *[Mr. President, Irise to express my support for article 10. Severalamendments have been moved for inserting the words"Scheduled Castes" after the words "Backward classes" in this article. I would like this to be done. Members areperhaps aware of the fact that the question of reservationfor Depressed Classes and Scheduled Castes was discussed bythe Advisory Committee but it was lost by a single vote.Otherwise there would have been, legally binding provisionsfor reservation in services for the Harijans. But as it is,I find that people are wondering why the expression"Backward Classes" has been put in this article and why isit that `Backward Class' has not been properly defined. Themembers of the House who have had occasion to go through theCensus Reports specially of the years 1921 and 1931, wouldhave found that the expression `Backward Class' has, in away, been defined therein. So far as I think, and thisopinion is borne out by these Reports, our society isdivided into three sections--The highest consisting of thatsection of our society which is known as `Caste Hindus' and the lowest of the section known as Scheduled Castes orHarijans, while the third occupying a middle positionbetween these two and consisting of a large portion of ourpeople is what may be termed as the Backward Class. I amsorry that this backward class for whose cause HonourablePandit Hirday Nath Kunzru has pleaded, has not been givenreservation in Legislatures, that is neither in theassemblies nor in the councils. I may cite Bihar as a casein point. According to the Census Report, the backward classconstitutes a major section of the population of theprovince. But you will find that with the only exception ofAhir community no other community has been givenrepresentation in the Council or Assembly of the province.Their population in the province is about five millions.There are altogether 152 seats in the Assembly and 30 seatsin the Council; but in both the Houses the Backward Classhas got only two seats. No doubt they are not treated asuntouchables. Moreover from the educational and economicpoint of view they are in a much better condition than theother communities. If a community, however, is to progressand occupy a high position in

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society it is essential that it must possess politicalrights. If a community, howsoever large it may be within asociety and whatever pre-eminence it may have reached in thematter of its culture, does not possess political rights andhas also no political representation in the Council and theAssembly, I am afraid, I cannot see how it can have the samestatus as the other communities in the eyes of the State. I,therefore, think that just as we have provided forreservations for the Harijans in Services, in Assemblies andin Councils, it would be proper on our part to make similarprovision for backward classes also for whom Pandit HirdayNath Kunzru has argued so feelingly. We have provided somany privileges to Harijans on the ground that they arebackward and I fail to understand why the same argumentshould not be applied for providing reservations for thebackward classes. I think that this is a view requiringserious consideration. We are framing a constitution for ourcountry by which we intend, and this has been specificallystated in the preamble, to secure to all citizens `Justice,social, economic and political.' But I think that we areactually denying political rights to a large section of ourcountrymen who constitute in my opinion, a major ity of thepopulation. We profess to be providing equal opportunity toall but in fact we are denying this to the backward classes.Therefore, if we really mean to secure equal opportunity toall we should, in article 10, not only provide forreservation of appointments or posts in favour of backwardclass of citizens but should also provide for reservation ofseats in Legislatures for them. I would like to answer theobjection of many members against the retention of the words`backward class' in this article.

Particularly my socialist friends Seth Damodar Swarupand Pandit Lokanath Misra have moved amendments seekingdeletion of the word `backward class.' The first observationI would like to make in this connection is that I do notunderstand why Sethji who is a member of the SocialistParty, which, as is well known, desires to securerepresentation for every section of the population, shouldbe rais ing an objection against the provision in this clausewhich is for the benefit of the `Backward Class.' To thosewho think that no backward class exists in the country, I would only say that they are blind to the facts of thehistory of our country, to the progressive society of todayand to the conditions obtaining at present. I thereforecommend wholeheartedly the labours of the Drafting Committeein this respect. With these words, Sir, I support the amendment as it is.]

30 november 1948

Shri Santanu Kumar Dass (Orissa: General): *[Mr. Vice-President, it is not my desire to say anything in connectionwith Backward classes which are being discussed here. Theevil effects of foreign rule in our country prevent us fromimmediately deleting all provisions relating to Reservationsfrom our Constitution. So long as these conditions continuein our country we will continue to demand reservations in the services for the Harijans and the scheduled castes, for these are covered by the term `backward class'. We will goon scrutinis ing the number of Harijans, Muslims andChristians in the services. Nowadays a minor ity fears thatwithout reservation it would not be able to gain seats inElections or employment in services. You know that there aremany vacancies in the Railway and Postal Departments. Theseposts are advertised. We receive interview letters and ourcandidates come from distant places for interview, but theircases are not at all considered and they are totallyignored, whereas those who have been working as apprenticesare selected as they have a strong backing from theirdepartments. What do we gain by these advertisements? Whenthere is a chance we are ignored. Then, why do you advertiseat all? Is it only to please Panditji or Sardarji?] Shri Santanu Kumar Dass: *[This also puts the gazettedofficers of the

scheduled castes and minor ity community intodifficulty. Seth Damodar Swarup

has just said that there isno need for reservations as Public Service

Commission wouldsecure impartiality. But in this connection I would like

topoint out that though there is a Public Service Commission,and candidates

appear at its examination and many of thosewho qualify appear in the lists,

yet when there is a chanceof filling posts those who have not even appeared at

theexamination are taken in. How does it happen? It happensbecause such people

have a strong backing which enables themto get selected. I am afraid the

continuation of PublicService Commissions would be of no use for us.

At present there is reservation in the elections and thereby we get a chance

to discuss our problems here. But If there was no such reservation it would

not be possible forus to come here as we would not be able to win in the

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*[] Translation of Hindustani speech.

general elections. I therefore, submit that there should bereservation in services and elections.

There is one thing more: It has been said thatreservation should be kept for ten years. Why only for tenyears? If we get equal rights within two years all would beon the same level after that period and there would be noneed for reservations. With these words I support thearticle.] Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: Sir, may I submit that many ofus do not appreciate the Marshal going to the speaker andasking him to resume his seat?

3o November 1948

Shri H. J. Khandekar:

Mr. Vice President, Sir, I havecome here to support article 10 which is being discussed in the House. Before supporting it I congratulate the friendwho in the Drafting Committee has inserted this word`backward' in article 10 clause (3). If this word `backward'had not been here, the purpose of the scheduled caste wouldnot have been served as it should be. The condition of thescheduled castes has been explained by many friends who madetheir speeches in the House. The condition is so deplorablethat though the candidates of the scheduled castes apply forcertain Government posts, they are not selected for theposts because the people who select the candidates do notbelong to that community or that section. I can give so manyinstances about this because I have got the experience fromall provinces of the country that the scheduled caste peoplethough they are well qualified do not get opportunity andfair treatment in the services. It would have been better If the word `scheduled caste' as has been proposed by anamendment by my friend Mr. Muniswamy Pillay would have beeninserted in this article. Because the term `backward' is sovague that there is no definition of this word anywhere. I do not agree with my friend Mr. Chandrika Ram saying thatthe definition of the word `scheduled caste' and a list of the castes included in the scheduled caste. But I think thefriend who has inserted this word in this article is aimingat the community known as the scheduled caste and when thisConstitution is passed and when the article comes intooperation, I hope that the Executive who will operate thisclause or this Constitution will also aim at the communityknown as scheduled castes. Our revered leader Thakkar Bapais in the House. He has been working for this community forabout sixteen years as the General Secretary of the HarijanSewak Sangh. He knows the difficulties of this communitysocially, economically, educationally, religiously and evenpolitically. If I may say here leaving aside all theseaspects, and if we consider the aspect politically, thiscommunity is not represented anywhere if no reservation ofseats are given to that community.

Mr. Vice-President: You had better confine yourself to the article under discussion. How does politics enter into the picture at all?

Shri H. J. Khandekar: Therefore, if I leave aside thepolitical aspects of the community and come to the social,educational, economical and religious aspects, the conditionof the scheduled caste in this respect also is moredeplorable than that of any man living in this country. Imay say, that if a candidate of the scheduled caste appliesfor a particular post in the Government of

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*[] Translation of Hindustani speech.

India or in the Provincial Governments he is ordinarilyignored. There are commissions for recruiting thesecandidates. There is a Federal Public Service Commission,there are provincial Commissions; and while recruiting--youknow, Sir, we people are educationally backward and wecannot come in competition with the other communities--If the qualifications for the Harijan candidates are notrelaxed, our candidates will not be able to compete with thecandidates of the Brahmin community or the so-called SavarnaHindus. Then if our candidates go to the F.P.S.C. or theProvincial Commissions they will not be successful in theselections as these commissions are not represented by us. Itherefore think that while bringing this clause intooperation, the F.P.S.C. or the Provincial Commissions shouldbe instructed to relax the qualifications in connection with the Harijan candidates or the Scheduled Caste candidates and there should also be Harijan representatives on thesecommissions. Moreover, Sir, I know and the House and youtoo, Sir, know that the Government of India--I mean thepresent Government of India--has issued a circular about theservices for the Scheduled caste. They have said that inhigher services 12 1/2 per cent. of the seats are reservedfor the scheduled caste and in the lower services 16 1/2 percent. are reserved for them.

Sir, if you just see how the recruiting of Scheduled castes candidates is going on in practice, you will findthat not even 1 per cent. of these candidates has beenrecruited in the higher services and in the lower servicesof the Government of India. Look at the ProvincialGovernments that have been run by our popular ministries.Even in those provinces, the scheduled castes have noadequate representation in the services. I, therefore, wouldhave been very glad if after or before the word "backward",the word "scheduled castes" had been inserted, because thisterm `backward' is a vague one and while making theselections, communalism will arise and the commissions, I donot blame them, will be helpless. As was said here bycertain friends of mine, communalism is going on, andprovincialism is going on and other things are also going onand I am afraid if these things are continued, even if thisclause is brought into operation, the scheduled castes willnever get a chance, as the word `backward' would beinterpreted in such a way that we people would get no chancein the services because the people of other castes will alsoclaim to be backward and get the chances on reserved posts.Therefore, Sir, before resuming my seat, I would request youto see that the machinery which will operate this clauseshould be so pure, that no discrimination of any sort shouldbe made between scheduled castes and other people who comeunder the category of backward classes. With these words,Sir, I take my seat.

30 november 1948

Pandit Hirday Nath Kunzru: (United Provinces: General):Mr. Vice-President,

Sir, I beg to move:

"That in clause (3) of article 10, for the words `shallprevent the State

from making any provision for thereservation' the words `shall, during a

period of ten yearsafter the commencement of this Constitution, prevent

theState from making any reservation' be substituted."

If this amendment is made, Sir, clause (3) would readas follows:

"Nothing in this article shall, during a period of tenyears after the

commencement of this Constitution, preventthe State from making any

reservation of appointments ofposts in favour of any backward class of

citizenswho........etc."

Sir, I am not in principle against the protection of the interests of classes

that are at present unable to lookafter themselves unaided; but this article,

as it is,presents several difficulties. In the first place, the word`backward'

is not defined anywhere in the Constitution.There is another article in the

Constitution, namely article301, that provides for the appointment of a

Commission toenquire into the condition of the backward classes. But, it is

stated there that only those classes will come within thepurview of the

enquiry that are educationally or sociallybackward. There too there is no

enumeration of the

classes to which the enquiry will refer. This article iseven more indefinite.

Whether any class is backward or not,should not be left to the law courts to

decide. It istherefore our duty to define the term `backward' so thatthere may

be no dispute in the future about its meaning.

My second point Sir, is this. While granting protectionto communities that

have been left behind in the race oflife, is it desirable that any special

provisions laid downfor them should operate indefinitely? Or is it

desirableboth in the interest of the backward classes and the Statethat any

special provisions made for these classes should beof limited duration? It

this article remains as it is and ifreservation of appointment or posts can be

made in favour of any

backward class indefinitely, the State might come tothink that it had done its

duty by these classes by makingthis provision. I think and I believe that the

House, ifleft to itself, would agree that it is desirable that theoperation of

such a provision should come under review fromtime to time so that we may be

able to see whether the Statehad taken such steps as were necessary in order

to liftthese classes from their present position and enable them tocompete on

terms of equality with the other classes.

Sir, my third argument is that the provision withregard to the reservation of

seats in the legislatures for the minor ities, which must include the

depressed classes and the scheduled tribes, according to the draft

constitution isto be of limited duration. Now nobody can deny at thepresent

time that a provision of this kind is necessary for these classes and it must

be obvious to everybody here thatrepresentation in the legislature is of far

greaterimportance than representation in services. If a communityis

represented in the legislature, its representatives canvoice its demands from

time to time and can see that anyinjustice done to that community either in

the matter ofappointment to posts or in any other matter is rectified.But if

it ceases to be represented in the legislature,whatever protection might be

granted to it in this or thatmatter, it will be in a far more helpless

condition than ifit were deprived of any other special aid. Now it has

beenprovided in the Constitution that the reservation of seatsfor the minor

ities which include the scheduled tribes anddepressed classes, who must

according to any definition beregarded as backward, is limited to ten years.

Article 305lays down that the provision for the reservation of seatsfor the

minor ities which include the scheduled tribes anddepressed classes, who must

according to any definition beregarded as backward, is limited to ten years.

Article 305lays down that the provision for the reservation of seatsfor the

minor ities according to their population shallcontinue in force unchanged for

ten years and no more. Onthe expiration of then years from the commencement of

the Constitution this "provision shall lapse unless it soperation is

extended by an amendment of the Constitution.Now is it not desirable that a

similar limitation should bellaid down in clause (3) of article 10? Indeed it

can beapplied with greater force to article 10 than to thereservation of posts

for the minor ities in the Central andProvincial administrations. If clause

(3) of article 10 isto be in comformity with the scheme for the protection of

the interests of the backward classes, I submit that it is not merely

desirable but necessary that the amendment that Ihave proposed should be made.

Lastly, Sir, I should like to know what is therelationship between clause (3)

of article 10 and article296. Article 296 provides that the claims of minor

itycommunities shall be taken into consideration consistentlywith the

maintenance of efficiency in the administration in the making of appointments

to services and posts inconnection with the affairs of the Union or of a State

for the time being specified in Part I of the First Schedule.Now in so far as

clause (3) of Article 10 applies to allStates specified in the First Schedule,

the differencebetween it and article 296, which applies only to

Statesspecified in Part I of the First Schedule, is clear. Butbeyond that it

is far from clear what the relationshipbetween these two articles is. Article

296 relates tominor ities. The claims of the minor ity communities can betaken

into consideration in making appointments to servicesonly on the ground that

they are backward. Though it is the word `minor ity' that is used, in article

296 and theexpression `backward classes' is used in article 10 (3), itseems to

me that in fairness to the country protection canbe granted to any class,

whether you call it a backwardclass or a minor ity, only on the ground that it

is backwardand if left to itself, would be unable to protect itsinterests.

This shows the need for

clearing up theconnection between the two articles that I have justreferred

to. Apart from this, I should like to know whetherif clause (3) of article 10

were passed, it would bepossible for sections within the various communities

to askfor special protection for themselves in the matter ofappointments to

services or posts. It may be that if clause(3) of article 10 is passed, it

will not be possible for theState to make any reservations in the services

forminor ities as such. But will it not be a temptation tosections of these

and other communities to claim that theyare backward in order to get the

protection of clause (3) ofarticle 10? Sir, I submit that we should have a

system thatwould not encourage fissiparous tendencies and under whichit will

not be to the interest of any class to claim that it is backward. It is

desirable therefore to limit theoperation of any special protection that we

may grant--protection of whatever kind--that its duration should belimited, so

that the legislature may from time to time beable to see how it has worked and

how the State hasdischarged its duty towards the protected classes. Unlessthis

is done, I venture to think that article 10 would notbe in conformity with the

intention of the constitution toremove all those conditions on account of

which specialprotection is necessary. We are all aware that when theReport of

the Minor ities Committee was considered by theHouse, the entire House was

anxious that reservations of whatever kind should be done away with as quickly

aspossible. It was recognized that for the time being theywere necessary, but

it was insisted on that whateverprotection might be considered necessary now,

should begranted temporarily only, so that the population of thecountry might

become fully integrated, and no community orclass might be tempted to claim

special advantages for itself. On these grounds, Sir, I venture to put forward

myamendment though I have no doubt whatsoever, that it willnot find favour

with my friend Dr. Ambedkar.

30 november 1948

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Mr. Vice-President, Sir, Iam afraid I am in a position of disadvantage, coming as I doafter Mr. Munshi, whom the House knows as a very learnedlawyer. I now see that his technique in advocacy is toconfuse the judge, as--if I had heard him aright--he musthave confused the minds of those Members of this House whohad some doubts in regard to the provisions of article 10.Sir, I was reading recently in a newspaper the comments onthis Constitution by a celebrated author ity--Prof. IvorJennings. Vice-Chancellor of the Ceylon University--and hecharacterises this chapter of fundamental rights as aparadise for lawyers. And, as a piece of loose drafting,article 10 takes the palm. My own view, if I may bepermitted to state it, is that this article had better notfind a place in this Chapter on Fundamental Rights.

Let me take clause (1): "There shall be equality ofopportunity for all citizens in matters of employment underthe State." What class of citizens? Literates? Illiterates? Could an illiterate file a suit before the Supreme Court alleging that he has been denied equality ofopportunity? This is not my own view. This is a statement of the view which I found expressed in Professor Jennings'criticism.

I now move on to clause (2). I am afraid this House hasbeen put to a lot of trouble merely because of the attemptto accommodate my Honourable Friend Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoorby including the word `residence' in this clause after theword `birth'. This has been beginning of all the trouble. Wehave had an amendment by Shri K. M. Munshi and another byShri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar. Is it at all necessary toinclude the word `residence?' I put it to the House that it is not necessary, because if there is discrimination becauseof `residence' as there may be, you are not going to coverit up by putting it in here and taking it out in clause 2(a).

An Honourable Member: Delete 2 (a) then.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: That is a matter for theHouse. But I suggest to the House that we can be impartialin this matter. We shall deny Mr. Jaspat Roy Kapoor theright to put in `residence' and we shall deny Shri AlladiKrishnaswami Ayyar the occasion to bring in an explanatorysub-clause which would whittle down the concession given asmuch as possible.

Now let us turn to the wording of the particularamendment moved by Shri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar on whichmy Honourable Friend Mr. Munshi dilated at length. Sir, as Isaid before, I am not presuming to give any advice on thematter. Let us see what the Parliament is going to do? Is itgoing to pass a comprehensive law covering the needs of allthe States, all the local bodies, all the village panchayats(which will also be States under the definition in Article7) and all the universities? Or, is it going to enact freshlegislation as and when occasion arises and as and when aparticular local body or university or village panchayatasks for special exemption? Nothing is known as to what isnaturally contemplated. We do not know what procedure isgoing to be laid down for this purpose, and this clause isso beautifully vague that we do not know whether Parliamentis at all going to be moved in the matter for acomprehensive piece of legislation. Even then what is thetype of legislation it could enact?

The proposal of my friend Shri Jaspat Roy can benullified if Parliament decides that there should beresidence of at least ten years before a person can qualifyfor an officer in the area. Or, is Parliament going to putdown one year or is it going to cover the position ofrefugees by putting in six months or nothing at all? My ownview is that, instead of putting in a clause like 2

(a)which is so vague,--the doubt raised by my friend Mr. Kamathis quite right--we can safely trust the good sense ofParliament. We are leaving the whole thing to the good senseof Parliament, the legislatures, the Supreme Court and theadvocates who will appear before that Court when we enactthis Constitution in the manner in which it has beenpresented to us. I am afraid there must be some region whereyou must leave it to the good sense of some people, becausewe are here trying to prevent the good sense of people fromnullifying the ideas which we hold today.

Sir, the amendment of Shri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyarsays: ".....under any State for the time being specified in the First Schedule or any local or other authority withinits territory, any requirement as to residence within thatState prior to such employment or appointment." I cannotreally understand where any State comes in here, even afterhearing the very able advocacy and admirable advocacy ofShri Munshi in support of the amendment. I suggest that boththe ammendments be dropped. If any particular Statedisregards our views and insists on residentialqualification it would not matter very much.

I now come to clause (3). Quite a number of friendsobjected to the word `backward' in this clause. I have nodoubt many of them have pointed out that when this House took a decision in this regard in thisparticular matter on a former occasion the word `backward'did not find a place. It was an after-thought which thecumulative wisdom of the Drafting Committee has devised for the purpose of anticipating the possibility of thisprovision being applied to a large section of the community.

May I ask who are the backward class of citizens? Itdoes not apply to a backward caste. It does not apply to aScheduled caste or to any particular community. I say thebasis of any future division as between `backward' and`forward' or non-backward might be in the basis of literacy.If the basis of division is literacy, 80 per cent. of ourpeople fall into the backward class citizens. Who is goingto give the ultimate award? Perhaps the Supreme Court. Itwill have to find out what the intention of the framers wasas to who should come under the category of backwardclasses. It does not say `caste.' It says `class.' Is it aclass which is based on grounds of economic status or ongrounds of literacy or on grounds of birth? What is it?

My honourable Friend Mr. Munshi thinks that this wordhas fallen from heaven like manna and snatched by theDrafting Committee in all their wisdom. I say this is aparadise for lawyers. I do not know if the lawyers who havebeen on the Committee have really not tried to improve thebusiness prospects of their clan and the opportunities of their community or class by framing a constitution so fullof pitfalls.

Shri K. M. Munshi: Well, my honourable friend canattempt to become a lawyer.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: I am afraid I may have to,when people like Mr. Munshi desert the profession for othermore lucrative occupations. If my friend wants me to saysomething saucy I can tell him that I could attempt that anddo some justice to it.

Shri K. M. Munshi: You can, I know.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: I must apologise to you, Mr.Vice-President, for carrying on a conversation with Mr.Munshi notwithstanding the fact that he has beenprovocative. Anyhow the subject is not one which merits suchsallies.

Sir, coming back to the merits of clause (3) my feelingis that this article is very loosely worded. That the word`backward' is liable to different interpretations is thefear of some of my friends, though I feel that there is noneed for such fear, because I have no doubt it is going to be ultimately interpreted by the Supreme author ity on somebasis, caste, community, religion, literacy or economicstatus. So I cannot congratulate the Drafting Committee onputting this particular word in; whatever might be theimplication they had in their mind, I cannot help feelingthat this clause will lead to a lot of litigation.

Sir, before I sit down I would like to put before theHouse a suggestion not to block the issue further either byadmitting the amendment of Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor or, as asequel to it, the amendment of Shri Alladi KrishnaswamiAyyar.

The Hon

30 november 1948

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Mr. Vice-President,Sir, I am going to say at the outset, before I deal with thespecific questions that have been raised in the course of the debate, that I cannot accept amendment No. 334 moved byMr. Misra; nor can I accept the two amendments moved by myfriend, Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad, Nos. 336 and 337. I amprepared to accept the amendment of Mr. Imam No. 338, asamended by amendment No. 77 moved by Mr. AnanthasaynamAyyangar. I am also prepared to accept the amendment of Mr.Kapoor, viz. No. 340, as amended by amendments Nos. 81 and82 moved by my friends Mr. Munshi and Mr. AlladiKrishnaswami Ayyar I do not think that I am called upon to say anythingwith regard to amendments Nos. 334, 336 and 337. Suchobservations, therefore, as I shall make in the course of myspeech will be confined to the question of residence aboutwhich there has been so much debate and the use of the word"backward" in clause (3) of article 10, My friend, Mr. T. T.Krishnamachari, has twitted the Drafting Committee that theDrafting Committee, probably in the interests of somemembers of that Committee, instead of producing aConstitution, have produced a paradise for lawyers. I am notprepared to say that this Constitution will not give rise toquestions which will involve legal interpretation orjudicial interpretation. In fact, I would like to ask Mr.Krishnamachari if he can point out to me any instance of anyConstitution in the world which has not been a paradise forlawyers. I would particularly ask him to refer to the vaststorehouse of law reports with regard to the Constitution of the United States, Canada and other countries. I amtherefore not ashamed at all if this Constitution hereafterfor purposes of interpretation is required to be taken to the Federal Court. That is the fate of every Constitutionand every Drafting Committee. I shall therefore not labourthat point at all.

Now, with regard to the question of residence. Thematter is really very simple and I cannot understand why sointelligent a person as my friend Mr. T. T. Krishnamacharishould have failed to understand the basic purpose of thatamendment.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: For the same reason as myhonourable Friend had for omitting to put that wordoriginally in the article.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I did not quitefollow. I shall explain the purpose of this ammendment. It is the feeling of many persons in this House that, since wehave established a common citizenship throughout India,irrespective of the local jurisdiction of the provinces and the Indian States, it is only a concomitant thing thatresidence should not be required for holding a particularpost in a particular State because, in so far as you makeresidence a qualification, you are really subtracting fromthe value of a common citizenship which we have establishedby this Constitution or which we propose to establish bythis Constitution. Therefore in my judgment, the argumentthat residence should not be a qualification to holdappointments under the State is a perfectly valid and aperfectly sound argument. At the same time, it must berealised that you cannot allow people who are flying fromone province to another, from one State to another, as merebirds of passage without any roots, without any connectionwith that particular province, just to come, apply for postsand, so to say, take the plums and walk away. Therefore,some limitation is necessary. It was found, when this matterwas investigated, that already today in very many provincesrules have been framed by the provincial governmentsprescribing a certain period of residence as a qualificationfor a post in that particular province. Therefore theproposal in the amendment that, although as a general ruleresidence should not be a qualification, yet some exceptionmight be made, is not quite out of the ordinary. We aremerely following the practice which has been alreadyestablished in the various provinces. However, what we foundwas that while different provinces were laying down acertain period as a qualifying period for posts, the periodsvaried considerably. Some provinces said that a person mustbe actually domiciled. What that means, one does not know.Others have fixed ten years, some seven years and so on. Itwas therefore felt that, while it might be desirable to fixa period as a qualifying test, that qualifying test shouldbe uniform throughout India. Consequently, if that object isto be achieved, viz., that the qualifying residential periodshould be uniform, that object can be achieved only bygiving the power to Parliament and not giving it to the local units, whether provinces or States.That is the underlying purpose of this amendment puttingdown residence as a qualification.

With regard to the point raised by my friend, Mr.Kamath, I do not propose to deal with it because it hasalready been dealt with by Mr. Munshi and also by anotherfriend. They told him why the language as it now stands in the amendment is perfectly in accord with the otherprovisions of this Constitution.

Now, Sir, to come to the other question which has beenagitating the members of this House, viz., the use of theword "backward" in clause (3) of article 10, I should liketo begin by making some general observations so that membersmight be in a position to understand the exact import, thesignificance and the necessity for using the word "backward"in this particular clause. If members were to try andexchange their views on this subject, they will find thatthere are three points of view which it is necessary for usto reconcile if we are to produce a workable propositionwhich will be accepted by all. Of the three points of view,the first is that there shall be equality of opportunity forall citizens. It is the desire of many Members of this Housethat every individual who is qualified for a particular postshould be free to apply for that post, to sit forexaminations and to have his qualifications tested so as todetermine whether he is fit for the post or not and thatthere ought to be no limitations, there ought to be nohindrance in the operation of this principle of equality ofopportunity. Another view mostly shared by a section of theHouse is that, if this principle is to be operative--and itought to be operative in their judgment to its fullestextent--there ought to be no reservations of any sort forany class or community at all, that all citizens, if theyare qualified, should be placed on the same footing ofequality so far as the public services are concerned. That is the second point of view we have. Then we have quite amassive opinion which insists that, although theoreticallyit is good to have the principle that there shall beequality of opportunity, there must at the same time be aprovision made for the entry of certain communities whichhave so far been outside the administration. As I said, theDrafting Committee had to produce a formula which wouldreconcile these three points of view, firstly, that thereshall be equality of opportunity, secondly that there shallbe reservations in favour of certain communities which havenot so far had a `proper look-in' so to say into theadministration. If honourable Members will bear these factsin mind--the three principles, we had to reconcile,--theywill see that no better formula could be produced than theone that is embodied in sub-clause (3) of article 10 of the Constitution; they will find that the view of those whobelieve and hold that there shall be equality ofopportunity, has been embodied in sub-clause (1) of Article10. It is a generic principle. At the same time, as I said,we had to reconcile this formula with the demand made bycertain communities that the administration which has now--for historical reasons--been controlled by one community ora few communities, that situation should disappear and thatthe others also must have an opportunity of getting into thepublic services. Supposing, for instance, we were to concedein full the demand of those communities who have not been sofar employed in the public services to the fullest extent,what would really happen is, we shall be completelydestroying the first proposition upon which we are allagreed, namely, that there shall be an equality ofopportunity. Let me give an illustration. Supposing, forinstance, reservations were made for a community or acollection of communities, the total of which came tosomething like 70 per cent. of the total posts under theState and only 30 per cent. are retained as the unreserved.Could anybody say that the reservation of 30 per cent. asopen to general competition would be satisfactory from thepoint of view of giving effect to the first principle,namely, that there shall be equality of opportunity? It cannot be in my judgment. Therefore the a

With regard to the minor ities, there is a specialreference to that in Article 296, where it has been laiddown that some provision will be made with regard to theminor ities. Of course, we did not lay down any proportion.That is quite clear from the section itself, but we have notaltogether omitted the minor ities from consideration.Somebody asked me: "What is a backward community"? Well, I think any one who reads the language of the draft itselfwill find that we have left it to be determined by eachlocal Government. A backward community is a community whichis backward in the opinion of the Government. My honourableFriend, Mr. T. T. Krishnamachari asked me whether this rulewill be justiciable. It is rather difficult to give adogmatic answer. Personally I think it would be ajusticiable matter. If the local Government included in thiscategory of reservations such a large number of seats, I think one could very well go to the Federal Court and the Supreme Court and say that the reservation is of such amagnitude that the rule regarding equality of opportunityhas been destroyed and the court will then come to theconclusion whether the local Government or the StateGovernment has acted in a reasonable and prudent manner. Mr.Krishnamachari asked: "Who is a reasonable man and who is aprudent man? These are matters of litigation". Of course,they are matters of litigation, but my honourable Friend,Mr. Krishnamachari will understand that the words"reasonable persons and prudent persons" have been used invery many laws and if he will refer only to the Transfer ofProperty Act, he will find that in very many cases the words"a reasonable person and a prudent person" have very wellbeen defined and the court will not find any difficulty indefining it. I hope, therefore that the amendments which Ihave accepted, will be accepted by the House.

Mr. Vice-President: I am now going to put the amendments to vote, one by one.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am sorry I forgotto say that I accept amendment No. 342.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:--

"That in clause (2) of article 10, for the word `ongrounds only' the words `on grounds' be substituted."

The motion was negatived.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is

30 november 1948

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: For the same reason as myhonourable Friend had for omitting to put that wordoriginally in the article.

Mr. Vice-President: I am now going to put the amendments to vote, one by one.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I am sorry I forgotto say that I accept amendment No. 342.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:--

"That in clause (2) of article 10, for the word `ongrounds only' the words `on grounds' be substituted."

The motion was negatived.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is

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