=₌CONSTITUNAL ASSEMBLY DEBATE

27 august 1947 Sardar patel

Then comes representation in the services. The general standard that we have accepted is that ordinarily competitive posts must go by merit and if we are to depart from this, the general administration would suffer immensely. It is well-known that since this departure has been introduced in the matter of services, our administration has suffered considerably. Now that we begin afresh, we must see that where we have to fill some administrative posts of a higher level, these posts have to be filled by competition, i.e. by competitive examination and competitive tests. We have made some concessions in the matter of certain communities. which require a little help.

Sardar patel on 27 august 1947

There was also another point which was a matter of controversy, and that was on behalf of the Muslim League and a section of the Scheduled Castes. The point was raised that a certain percentage of votes should be considered necessary for a successful candidate. This was a matter of controversy and amongst the Scheduled Castes themselves a very large majority sent me a representation yesterday saying they were against this. But in the Advisory Committee it was discussed

Sardar patel on 27 august 1947

The introduction of the system of communal electorates is a poison which has entered into the body politic of our country. Many Englishmen who were responsible for this also admitted that. But today, after agreeing to the separation of the country as a result of this communal electorate, I never thought that that proposition was going to be moved seriously, and even if it was moved seriously, that it would be taken seriously.and it was thrown out by a large majority

Sardar patel on 14 october 1949

So far as the Services are concerned, for all major posts or all posts which go by competitive examinations there is no reservation on communal grounds. They go to the Public Service Commission. You are quarrelling or asking for the minor posts-Chaprasis and clerks

Is it the Sikh position now that we have not got enough Sikh Chaprasis and clerks ? Are you going to raise the community in that manner ? If that is so, tell me, and If you leave what you have got for the Scheduled Castes, I shall persuade the Constituent Assembly to give you what you want, but you will repent afterwards

dalit leaders demanded reservation in cabinet also

Shri V. I. Muniswami Pillai (Madras : General)

27 august 1947

Much has been said about the representation of minorities in the Cabinet. I am one of those, Sir, who believe in political power for the elevation of the weaker sections of our land. It is by holding offices that these people are bound to come in contact with these unfortunate minority communities and see for themselves what should be done to elevate them. if I plead that there ought to be proper representation of these minorities in the Cabinet, I do not mean, Sir, that the Cabinets will become polluted or it win become inefficient but equal opportunity must be given. Once you give reservation an population basis, I also claim, Sir, that representation in the Cabinet also must be in that proportion. Sir, events have shown in this country that the members that have been drawn from Scheduled Castes to various offices as Ministers and Speakers of the Assembly have proved equally good in the discharge of their duties. Let there be nothing in the minds of the majority communities that those who were chosen from these communities for high offices will not be efficient. I feel that a convention has to be created according to the 1935 Act, as recommended in the Report. I am sure that the goodwill of the majority communities will always be there to see that those weaklings,-the minority communities, are well represented in the Cabinets. Sir, in the matter of services, I earnestly request that everything must be done to these minority communities so that they may have their quota in the services of this great land. Often it is said though the Depressed Classes have the required qualification, under some pretext or other they are not given chances in the services. I wish, Sir, after this report has been accepted by the Constituent Assembly, those majority communities who will have the ruling say in the matter will see that the claims of the Scheduled Castes will not be forgotten. I know-as a matter of fact to start with, the present Dominion Cabinet have already issued an executive order setting aside 12 1/2 per cent and 16 1/2 per cent for the Scheduled Castes both in the competitive and non-competitive services

sardar rejected rservation in cabinet

27 august 1947

We have, so far as the Cabinet representation is concerned also adopted the formula that exists today in the 1935 Act which is considered constitutionally proper and, therefore, it has also been accepted unanimosly.

25 may 1949 sardar patel

Shri R. K. Sidhva : Sir, I am very glad that the Honourable Dr. Ambedkar has moved amendment No. 15 and the other amendments relating to backward classes have been dropped. My amendment, as just now stated, related to the deletion of the clause relating to backward classes.

Sir, I have been trying to understand what is the definition of backward classes. In article 301, we have stated that those who are socially and educationally backward would be known As backward classes. Today, in this country, 88 per cent. of the people are illiterate. They do not know even the A B C or the alphabet of their own mother tongue. Only 12 per cent. of the people are literate in this country. Socially also they are backward. Am I to understand that 88 per cent. of the people are backward ? Article 301, definitely states that those who are socially and educationally backward will come under that article. How can we then say that the whole country, 88 per cent. of the people are to be known as backward classes ? My honourable Friend, Mr. Guptanath Singh, went to the length of saying that the peasant belongs to the backward class. He mentioned the illustration of the Brahmin as backward class. I know of an illustration and I shall give it, This was all created for the purpose of getting position and power and nothing else. Some ten years ago, a person wanted to get into the services as a Subordinate judge. The belonged to Pushkar Brahmin community. He set up a theory that the Pushkar Brahmins belonged to the backward classes. He had merely to take the signatures of 500 persons and present it to the chief Judge. The Judge was guided by the signatures and as there was no Pushkar Brahmin in the service as Judge, he appointed

I do feel that our article 301 is a real stigma on our Constitution. I wish article 301 should go: I do not want backward classes at all to be mentioned in our Constitution. It is a slur upon our intelligence. For those who are educationally backward, we have provided in the Directive policy that within ten years every man, woman or child should be made literate. When educationally every person is advanced, who will call them backward ? There will be no backward classes. Socially, they become advanced. If a man is educated, I have seen he improves his position in society and social affairs. Therefore, the fundamental thing is education and we have provided for. that in the Directive Policy. I would have wished it to have. come in the Funda mental Rights. Within ten years, there shall not be a single person who shall be illiterate. Of course, there are certain difficulties in the way. I am sure our present Government are' going to see that every man is made literate within a period of ten years, and we shall be proud that every person can read in his own mother tongue.

Sardar patel on 14 october 1949

30 NOVEMBER 1949 K M MUNSHI

we want to see that backward classes, classes who are really backward, should be given scope in the State services; for it is realised that State services give a status and an opportunity to serve the country, and this opportunity should be extended to every community, even among the backward people. That being so, we have to find out some generic term and the word "backward class" was the best possible term. When it is read with article 301 it is perfectly clear that the word "backward" signifies that class of people--does not matter whether you call them untouchables or touchables, belonging to this community or that,--a class of people who are so backward that special protection is required in the services and I see no reason why any member should be apprehensive of regard to the word "backward."

AMBEDKAR 30 NOVEMBER 1948

Of the three points of view, the first is that there shall be equality of opportunity for all citizens. It is the desire of many Members of this House that every individual who is qualified for a particular post should be free to apply for that post, to sit for examinations and to have his qualifications tested so as to determine whether he is fit for the post or not and that there ought to be no limitations, there ought to be no hindrance in the operation of this principle of equality of opportunity. Another view mostly shared by a section of the House is that, if this principle is to be operative--and it ought to be operative in their judgment to its fullest extent--there ought to be no reservations of any sort for any class or community at all, that all citizens, if they are qualified, should be placed on the same footing of equality so far as the public services are concerned. That is the second point of view we have. Then we have quite a massive opinion which insists that, although theoretically it is good to have the principle that there shall be equality of opportunity, there must at the same time be a provision made for the entry of certain communities which have so far been outside the administration. As I said, the Drafting Committee had to produce a formula which would reconcile these three points of view, firstly, that there shall be equality of opportunity, secondly that there shall be reservations in favour of certain communities which have not so far had a `proper look-in' so to say into the administration. If honourable Members will bear these facts in mind--the three principles, we had to reconcile,--they will see that no better formula could be produced than the one that is embodied in sub-clause (3) of article 10 of the Constitution; they will find that the view of those who believe and hold that there shall be equality of opportunity, has been embodied in sub-clause (1) of Article 10. It is a generic principle. At the same time, as I said, we had to reconcile this formula with the demand made by certain communities that the administration which has now--for historical reasons--been controlled by one community or a few communities, that situation should disappear and that the others also must have an opportunity of getting into the public services. Supposing, for instance, we were to concede in full the demand of those communities who have not been so far employed in the public services to the fullest extent, what would really happen is, we shall be completely destroying the first proposition upon which we are all agreed, namely, that there shall be an equality of opportunity. Let me give an illustration. Supposing, for instance, reservations were made for a community or a collection of communities, the total of which came to something like 70 per cent. of the total posts under the State and only 30 per cent. are retained as the unreserved. Could anybody say that the reservation of 30 per cent. as open to general competition would be satisfactory from the point of view of giving effect to the first principle, namely, that there shall be equality of opportunity? It cannot be in my judgment. Therefore the seats to be reserved, if the reservation is to be consistent with sub-clause (1) of Article 10, must be confined to a minority of seats. It is then only that the first principle could find its place in the Constitution and effective in operation. If honourable Members understand this position that we have to safeguard two things namely, the principle of equality of opportunity and at the same time satisfy the demand of communities which have not had so far representation in the State, then, I am sure they will agree

AMBEDKAR 30 NOVEMBER 1948

"What is a backward community"? Well, I think any one who reads the language of the draft itself will find that we have left it to be determined by each local Government. A backward community is a community which is backward in the opinion of the Government. My honourable Friend, Mr. T. T. Krishnamachari asked me whether this rule will be justiciable. It is rather difficult to give a dogmatic answer. Personally I think it would be a justiciable matter. If the local Government included in this category of reservations such a large number of seats, I think one could very well go to the Federal Court and the Supreme Court and say that the reservation is of such a magnitude that the rule regarding equality of opportunity has been destroyed and the court will then come to the conclusion whether the local Government or the State Government has acted in a reasonable and prudent manner. Mr. Krishnamachari asked: "Who is a reasonable man and who is a prudent man? These are matters of litigation". Of course, they are matters of litigation, but my honourable Friend, Mr. Krishnamachari will understand that the words "reasonable persons and prudent persons" have been used in very many laws and if he will refer only to the Transfer of Property Act, he will find that in very many cases the words "a reasonable person and a prudent person" have very well been defined and the court will not find any difficulty in defining it. I hope, therefore that the amendments which I have accepted, will be accepted by the House. Mr. Vice-President: I am now going to put the amendments to vote, one

by one

sardar patel on 26 may 1949

should not Mr. Nagappa who today challenges the Brahmin be so? I am glad to hear that the ownership of 20 acres of land does not entitle him to be a scheduled casts man. "That is my privilege" he said " because I am born a scheduled caste man. You have first to be born in the scheduled caste". It gladdened my heart immensely that that young man had the courage to come before the House and claim the privilege of being born in the Scheduled Caste. It is not a dishonour: he has an honourable place in this country. I want every scheduled caste man to feel that he is superior to a Brahmin or rather, let us say, I want every scheduled caste man and the Brahmin to forget that he is a scheduled caste man or a Brahmin respectively and that they are all equal and the same. CMO CRPF

26 may 1949

Mr. President: Then there is the amendment which was moved by Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava.

Pandit Balkrishna Sharma (United Provinces: General): I think the mover accepts the amendment.

The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel: Yes, Sir, I accept the amendment.

Mr. President: The question is;

"That the following be added to the Motion:-

"The provisions for reservation of seats and nominations will last for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution.'"

The amendment was adopted.

S nagappa on 28 august 1947

Shri S. Nagappa: The amendment is as follows "That the following be added at the end of para. 6 'Provided that in the case of the Scheduled Castes the candidate before he is declared elected to the seat reserved for the Scheduled Castes, Shall have secured not less than 35 per cent. of the votes polled by the Scheduled Castes in the election to the reserved seat'."

Shri S. Nagappa: For instance there are four candidates that are seeking election to the reserved seats. Now let us take it there are 100 Scheduled Caste votes and let us assume all the 100 Scheduled Caste voters comes and vote. A gets 36 and B gets 35, this comes to 71. Only 29 is there for the other. Now you need not take that man at all into consideration who has polled only 29 per cent. Now again you need not have two elections. You can distribute two coloured papers to the voters come and vote. A gets 36 and B gets 35, this comes to 71. Only placed only for the Scheduled Caste candidate and if one gets more than 35 per cent, of the Scheduled Caste votes, or coloured votes, you need not take the other man into consideration at all.

28 AUGUST 1947

Shrimati Dakshayani Velayudan (Madras: General)

Mr. President I find that for the Motion four Members have given their names and first comes the name of the Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. I am surprised to find that a Member who came in as result of a joint electorate came forward to move this amendment whereas a member who, was all the while standing, for separate electorates and for the so-called percentage is not to be seen in the House to-day. If there was any sincerity in moving this amendment we could have found the person who headed the list, and I do not know why another member took up that responsibility. There may be some reason behind the scene. ' The Mover of the amendment, Mr. Nagappa, said when they come to, the Assemblies as a result ,of joint electorates they may not be coming With the votes of the community and so they are not entitled to represent the community. If Mr. Nagappa thinks that he has come here as a result of such an election, the wisest and the best thing that he ought to do would be to withdraw his candidature or his membership from this Assembly and the Provincial Assemblies (Hear, hear). If anybody thinks that he is unfit to speak for the community when he comes on the vote of the community or the vote of the people in general, the best way to do service to the community is to disappear from the scene and not to take part in any political activities whatsoever and I think Dr. Ambedkar was wise enough to be absent on the occasion because he knew that this is not going to be carried in the Assembly today or on any day. As the Chairman of the, Minority Committee spoke yesterday these things were passed in the committee by majority of votes and, whatever reasons that he may bring forward here, it may not be carried out. So without wasting his time, he has gone for his work as he is engaged in Cabinet work. Somebody has come forward with an excuse that if this form of electorate exists, the real representatives of the people will not be able to come. If we analyse the demand for a percentage of the votes. of the community, we will come to the conclusion that it is nothing but unadulterated separate electorates (Hear, hear). I must ask the Honourable Members who moved the amendment whether they are giving any meaning to the votes that. will be cast by the members of other communities. In practice, we have to take into account only the votes that will be cast by the community. If a candidate gets 34 per cent. and another date 35 per cent. of the votes of his community, if the first candidate gets 200 cites from the general public and the next candidate gets 100 votes from the general public, and if we take into account the percentage of votes cast by the community, certainly the second candidate Should be elected. Then it comes to this that there will be no meaning to the votes cast by other communities though it amounts to double the number of votes which the second candidate gets from the general people.

Then there is another reason for my opposing this amendment. Even if the Harijans are given this percentage of votes, and this kind of electorate system, the Harijans are not in a position to withstand the attractions that they will have to face at the time of elections. So many parties can set up candidates and they can purchase the Harijans and put up any candidate they desire', and any candidate can come up in the assembly' and certainly he may not represent the community though he may get percentage of votes that is desired by this system. Along as the Scheduled Castes, or the Harijans, or by whatever name they may be called, are economic slaves of other people, there is no meaning demanding either separate electorates or joint electorates or any other kind of electorates with this kind of percentage. (Cheers). Personally speaking, I am not in favour of any kind of reservation in any place whatsoever. (Hear, hear). Unfortunately, we had to accept all these things because the British Imperialism has left some marks on us and we are always feeling afraid of one another. So, we cannot. do away with separate electorates. This joint electorate and reservation of seats also is a kind of separate electorates But we have to put up with that evil because we think that it is a necessary evil. I wanted to oppose this amendment because it will be standing in our way and because when the system is put into actual working it. will be standing in the way of Harijans, getting a correct ideology. It is lack of correct ideology among Harijans that has led them to bring this sort of amendment here. If they think that they can better their lot by standing apart from the other communities, they are in the wrong. They can do better by joining with the majority community and not depending on the votes of their own, community. I must assure the Mover of the amendment that the Harijans are not going to gain anything. if you get this sort of electorate system. So I oppose I this amendment and I hope that nobody' in this House will support the amendment. (Cheers.) (Many Honourable Members rose to speak.) Mr. President: I have got requests from a very large number of Members to speak. on this

28 AUGUST 1947

Mr. H. J. Khandekar:

[Mr. President, Sir, I stand to oppose the amendment which has been placed before you by my friend Mr. Nagappa. This amendment stands in the name of four Members. The first name is that of Dr. Ambedkar, and you all know that from the time of Vie Second Round Table Conference till the Minority Sub-Committee, of the Advisory Committee assembled, he relinquished the demand for joint electorates and continued the demand for separate electorates. On the question of this demand his message to all Harijans of his country, who belonged to his party, went to the extent that they were not even Hindus that they wished to have a colony separate from the Hindus, that they were not within the fold of Hindu religion, and it was for this reason that they desired separate electorates. This thing has been going on in the country for the-last fifteen years with the result that a sort of discord has been created between Caste Hindus and Harijans of Dr. Ambedkar's party, and it- has gone to the extent that Harijans of Ambedkar party do not wish to converse with Hindus. But I feel happy to state that when this matter relating to joint and separate electorates came-Up before the Minority Sub-Committee

It has come to my notice that our Muslim brothers, who in this country are about 3 crores, have got and are going to get on the report of the Advisory Committee all the facilities which they should get. Even

-------------------------------------------------------- *[English translation of Hindustani speech.

then they say that they should get percentage of votes in order to enable them to elect their representatives. Once again, my friend Mr. Nagappa too, who is an ally of Dr. Ambedkar and is dancing to his tune on some expectations, says the same thing, i.e., that it is in this way alone that our true representatives will be chosen. I want to ask these brothers, what is the meaning of a true representative ? I want to cite the example of this Assembly. If my friends are not true representatives of Harijans, if Kazis are not here as true representatives of Muslims then, what will happen to this Assembly ? If these honest Muslim brothers shout "Jinnah Zindabad", we shout "Bharat-Mata-ki-jai" or other slogans and such sort of pin pricks continue, what will be the result ? I would like to ask Mr. Nagappa and Kazi Sahib, who will suffer then, the majority or the minority ? Any declaration of this sort is most improper and therefore I do not agree with the amendment of Mr. Nagappa.

Dr. Ambedkar and Mr. Nagappa the Harijans will permanently remain Harijans and their position would gradually deteriorate. There are sub-castes within castes. There are several sub-castes among Harijans. In fact Harijans are not a part of any community but are spread. throughout India in 132 sub-castes. If percentage of 35 is passed, the 3 per cent. "Chamars" who live in Nagpur will not come. within the orbit of this election. If election is fought community-wise then "Mahars" who are 80 per cent. will get 35 per cent, votes. Therefore "Chamars", "Bhangis" and the other sub-castes will.not be able to return their representatives in elections because they are in minority among Harijans. In that case only the 'Mahars', to which section Dr. Ambedker and I belong and which has a predominating majority in Bombay and Nagpur, will capture all the mats of the' Harijans in those provinces and other Harijans will get no seat at all.

Besides, I have to request Mr. Nagappa to withdraw the amendment. the reason being that contrary to his belief the percentage of votes is not in favour of Harijans. Harijans will not benefit by it, in- fact it would be very bad (for them). Today we have achieved freedom for this country. We the inhabitants of this country have become its masters. Under than circumstances, if we do not take the majority community into confidence, and if the majority community does not take us to its confidence, then the government of this country cannot go on. For preserving peace in the country I have to request Mr. Nagappa to kindly withdraw the amendment.

Friends, only a few days back we the Hindus, the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Christian, the Parsis and the Harijans all acclaimed with one'voice that we are one nation. We all gave our respectful salute to this tricolour. It would be a pity, if today we put in this amendment which seeks separate electorates.] Shrimati Renuka Ray (West Bengal: General): Sir, I rise to oppose this last amendment. The report of the Advisory Committee shows very clearly that its authors have done their utmost to satisfy all elements in the country. In fact, Sir, if the report has erred it has erred in the direction of over-generosity to the so-called minorities. In order to allay suspicion and distrust and to come to an agreed solution it has given every consideration to those who are swayed by communal and religious considerations even to the sacrifice of national interests. After all Sir, it is not a question of minorities and majorities on a religious basis that we should consider in a democratic secular State. We have agreed to the reservation of seats just for the time being for the next ten years to allow those who cannot think of themselves in terms of "Indians" to adjust themselves over this period. I am surprised that the Mover of this amendment should have persisted today in bringing it forward. After the stirring appeal that was made by Sardar Patel and the very cogent and comprehensive arguments put forward by Pandit Pant to show ',,hat separate electorates are not only discordant and jarring to national interests but against the interests of the very communities for which they are intended, I thought he would not have pressed this amendment.

It is a back door method of bringing in separate electorates, which the House did not accept yesterday. Sir, we have stood aside helplessly while artificially this problem. of religious differences--an echo of medieval times, has been fostered and nurtured and enhanced by tile method of political devices such as separate electorates in order to serve the interests of our alien rulers.

Today we see as a result our country divided and provinces like my own dismembered We see that many who have made sacrifices, in the struggle for the freedom of India cannot be citizens; of India today. We have learnt indeed a bitter lesson. We have submitted to all this so that at least in., the rest of India that remains with us now we may go ahead in forming a democratic secular State-without bringing in religion to cloud the issue Religion is a personal matter. Religious differences might have been exploited as a political expendient by the British but there Is no room for that in the India of today, Six. the problem, that Faces us is not a problem of minorities or of majorities on a religious basis. The problem that faces us is the problem of the vast majority in the country irrespective of religion, the majority who today are surrounded by ignorance and ill-health, hunger and want. It is they who are the backward sections of the, community and who are the majority at the same time. It is their problem that we have to take up. If we want to make the Objectives Resolution that this House has passed and the Fundamental Rights that have been laid down, a living reality it is this problem that we have. got to tackle. We cannot allow any subtle devices by the back door such as restricted separate electorates to sidetrack us now from the main issue. We cannot expect those who are backward to function and participate as citizens with equal rights unless we take steps to make them conscious of their rights, By all means let us do all that we can to help their development through every means In our power, and make such provision in the constitution. But a separatist tendency on the basis of religion is something that I do not think we -------------------------------------------------------- *English translation of Hindustani speech.

can tolerate any longer. We have never stood nor do 'we stand today for Hindu domination; we do not want that Hindus as such as a religious community shall override any other interests. But 'We' do want that India's interests shall be paramount, that the interests of no special community shall stand in the way. whether it is a majority or a minority religious community. Sir, I hope that this House will throw out this amendment and that we shall be able to go ahead until we are able to find a solution for the real problems that confront us, so that India can take her proper place in the comity of nations; so that in accordance with the cultural heritage which is ours, enriched by the variety of the cultures, that have found a home in this country, we will be enabled to play an effective part in the harmonious development of the world as a whole.

28 august 1947 sardar patel

So far as the amendment moved by the representative of the Muslim League is concerned, I find that I was mistaken in my Impression.

and if I had believed this, 1,would certainly not have agreed to any reservation at all. (Hear, Hear). When I agreed to the reservation an the population basis, I thought that our friends of the Muslim League will see the reasonableness of our attitude and allow themselves to accommodate themselves to the changed conditions after the separation of the country. But I now find them adopting the same methods which were adopted when the separate electorates were first introduced in this country, and in spite of ample sweetness in the language used there is a full dose of poison in the method adopted. (Hear, Hear). Therefore,I regret to say that if I lose the affection of the younger brother, I am prepared to lose it because the method he wants to adopt would bring about his death. I would rather lose his affection and keep him alive. If this amendment is lost, we will lose the affection of the younger brother, but I prefer the younger brother to live so that he may see the wisdom of the attitude of the elder brother and he may still learn to have affection for the elder brother

Therefore, my friends, you must change your attitude, adapt yourself to the changed conditions. And don't pretend to say "Oh, our affection is very great for you". We have seen your affection. Why talk of it ? Let us forget the affection. Let us face the realities. Ask yourself whether you really want to stand here and cooperate with us or you want again to play disruptive tactics. Therefore when I appeal to you, I appeal to you to have a change in your heart, not a change in the tongue, because that won't pay here. Therefore, I still appeal to you : "Friends, reconsider your attitude and withdraw your amendment". Why go on saying "Oh, Muslims were not heard; Muslim amendment was not carried". If that is going to pay you, you are much mistaken, and I know how it cost me to protect the Muslim minorities here under the present condition and in the present atmosphere. Therefore, I suggest that you don't forget that the days in which the agitation of the type you carried on are closed and we begin a new chapter. Therefore, I once more appeal to you to forget the past. Forget what has happened. You have got what you wanted. You have got a separate State and remember, you are the people who were responsible for it, and not those who remain in Pakistan. You led the agitation. You got.it. What is it that you want now ? I don't understand. In the majority Hindu provinces YOU, the minorities, you led the agitation. You got the partition and now again you tell me and ask me to say for the purpose of Securing the affection of the younger brother that I must agree to the same thing again, to divide the country again in the divided part. For God's sake, understand that we have also got some sense. Let us understand the thing clearly. Therefore when I say we must forget the past, I say it sincerely. There will be no injustice done to you. There will be generosity towards you, but there must be reciprocity. If it is absent, then you take it from me that no soft words can conceal what is behind your words. Therefore, I plainly once more appeal to you strongly that let us forget and let us be one nation.

To the Scheduled Caste friends, I also appeal: "Let us forget what Dr. Ambedkar or Ms group have done. Let us forget what you did. You have very nearly escaped partition of the country again on your lines. You have seen the result of separate electorates in Bombay, that when the greatest benefactor of your community came to Bombay to stay in bhangi quarters it was your people who tried to stone his quarters. What was it ? It was again the result of this poison, and therefore I resist this only because I feel that the vast majority of the Hindu population wish you well.. Without them where will you he ? Therefore, secure their confidence and forget that you are a Scheduled Caste. I do not understand how Mr. Khandekar is a Scheduled Caste man. If he and I were to go outside India, nobody will find out whether he is a Scheduled Caste man or I am a Scheduled Caste man. There is no Scheduled Caste between us. So those representatives of the Scheduled Caste must know that the Scheduled Caste has to be effaced altogether from our society, and if it is to be effaced, those who have ceased to be untouchables and sit amongst us have to forget that they are untouchables or else if they carry this inferiority complex, they will not be able to serve their community. They will only be able to serve their community by feeling now that they are with us They are no more Scheduled Castes and therefore they must change their manners and I appeal to them also to have no breach between them and the other group of Scheduled Castes. There are groups amongst themselves, but everyone tries according to his own light. We are now to begin again. So let us forget these sections and cross-sections and let us stand as one, and together

28 august 1947

Mr. President: I have first to put the amendment of Mr. Nagappa.

Shri S. Nagappa: I do not press my amendment. I withdraw it.

Mr. President: Does the House give him leave to withdraw his amendment ?

Honourable Members: Yes.

The amendment was, by leave of the Assembly, withdrawn.

27 august 1947

Prof. Shibbban Lal Saksena (United Provinces: General) : Mr. President Sir, my amendment is No. 85 and it says that the words "scheduled castes" be deleted from the schedule. The purpose of the amendment is that scheduled castes should not be classed as separate minority but should be treated as an integral part of the Hindu community. My amendment reads-

That from group C of the Schedule to para 1, the words "7 Scheduled castes" be deleted.

I would like to draw the attention of the Assembly to one important declaration. It is this. It will be remembered that Mr. Jinnah has often tried to include the Scheduled castes in the minorities; and on June 26, 1946, in a letter from Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad to Lord Wavell, and the latters reply thereto, Lord Wavell is reported to have said:

"........ if any vacancy occurs among the seat, allotted to the minorities, I shall naturally consult both the main parties before filling it."

Mr. Jinnah has thus included the Scheduled Castes among the minorities. But so far as we are concerned, we consider the Scheduled Castes as belonging to Hindus, they are not a minority, they have also always formed part of us. I am glad Mr. Munshi has brought up his amendment, which meets my purpose and I therefore withdraw my amendment, in favour of his.

Shri K. M. Munshi (Bombay: General) : Sir, because amendment No. 85 has been moved by Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena I move the amendment standing in my name:-

"That in amendment No. 85 of List III, dated 26th August 1947, the words "7. Scheduled Castes" be deleted and the following para. be added after para :-

"1-A. The section of the Hindu community referred to as Scheduled Castes as defined in Schedule I to the Government of India Act, 1935, shall have the same rights and benefits which are herein provided for minorities specified in the Schedule to para. 1"

Shri Lakshminarayan Sahu (Orissa: General) : Sir, on this Schedule I want to say one thing about the aboriginals. I think there should be some provision here so that the aboriginals also may find a place in this Schedule. The fact is, mete are two and a half crores of aboriginals in. ..............

The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel: There is a separate Committee going into the question of the aboriginals and other tribes and its report will come up. The question will be considered when we consider that reportShri Lakshminarayan Sahu: But could we not make some provision here ?

Mr. President: There is a separate committee appointed for the aboriginals and other tribes and if there is any such recommendation in that committee's report, then we can take it up for consideration when considering that report

25 may 1949

Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava (East Punjab: General): Sir, I beg to move:

"That the following be added to the Resolution:-

'The provision for reservation of seats and nominations will last for a period of ten years from the commencement of the Constitution."

Mr. President: Is this an amendment to the original proposition?

Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava: This is an amendment to an amendment.

An Honourable Member: But no amendment has been moved

ndit Thakur Das Bhargava: Sir, I move:

"That the following be added to the Motion:

"The provision for reservation of seats and nominations will last for a period of ten years from the commencement of the Constitution."

I only formally move this. If I catch your eye, I propose to speak later on the resolution.

As regards my honourable Friend Mr. Lari's amendment, that the reservation for the Scheduled Castes should be abolished, I thank my honourable, Friend for giving this idea to the House. But, let it remain as an ideal; it cannot be put in action. After all is said and done today, let my honourable Friend Mr. Lari remember that once upon a time, if not today, some time ago, he was a Harijan. It is the Harijans that have contributed to all these communities.

Mr. Z. H. Lari: I would be glad be become a Harijan if I could get ten acres of wet land and twenty acres of dry land.

Shri S. Nagappa: If you can scavenge, you can become a Harijan. Nobody prevents you. Community has come according to duties; no one has been labeled that he is so and so. Only if you do the work of a teacher, you can be called a teacher. If you scavenge, you are a scavenge; if you sweep, you are a sweeper. If you are so fond of becoming a Harijan, the duties are also open to you. All the friends that are prepared to scavenge, sweep.......

Mr. President: Please confine yourself to the motion before the House. We all know the duties of the Harijans.

Shri S. Nagappa: Let me come to the point. My honorable Friends who have been jealous of my community, I hope will not be so for ever.

Sardar patel on 25 may 1949

If the Constitution guaranteed special safeguards such as communal electorates, and weightage to the Sikhs we fear that it would impossible to justify denying the same privilege to certain other communities. The detailed arguments may vary but the main approach will be similar. We would mention in this connection only the Scheduled Castes whose standards of education and material well-being are, even on Indian standards, extremely low and who, moreover, suffer from grievous social disabilities. They have contented themselves with the Provisions approved by the Assembly and referred to in paragraph 2 above. We cannot conceive of any valid argument which would justify the inclusion in the Constitution of safeguards for the Sikhs which are merely illustrative. We feel convinced that to accede to the demands of the Shromani Akali Dal will lead, by an inevitable extension off similar privileges to other communities, to a disrupting of the whole conception of the Secular State which is to be the basis of our new Constitution.

7. We recommend accordingly that no special provision should be provided for the Sikhs other than the general provisions already by the Assembly for certain minorities and summarized in paragraph 2.

Mahaveer tyagi on 26 may 1949

Another point that I want to emphasise is about the Scheduled Castes. Sir, originally when the scheduled castes were given separate representation, Mahatma Gandhi had started his fast in protest. Now we have it seems, accepted the idea; but when it was first introduced, everybody was shocked. Nobody liked it and when Mahatma Gandhi gave his ultimatum of fast unto death the Prime Minister of England addressed a letter to Gandhiji dated September 8, 1933 in which he said:-

"Under the Government scheme the depressed classed will remain part of the Hindu community and will vote with the Hindu electorate on an equal footing but for the first twenty years, while still remaining electorally part of the Hindu community, they will receive through a limited number of special constituencies the means of safeguarding their rights and interests that, we are convinced, is necessary under present conditions."

You will see, Sir, that when the idea of giving separate reservation to the scheduled castes was first introduced, the intention was that it should last only for twenty years. After that period they were expected to become absolutely one with the Hindus. It was in the year 1933 and now it is 1949. So it is only a few years less than twenty. According to the old scheme of the British Government reservation for the Scheduled Castes should go in 1952, why are we now giving it a further lease of ten years? Again, Sir, if we look at the list of Scheduled Castes, there are so many included in it. We have had the experience of separate reservation for Scheduled Castes. Fasts must be faced as they are. The term "Scheduled Castes" is a fiction. Factually there is no such thing as `Scheduled Castes'. There are some castes who are depressed, some castes who are poor, some who are untouchables,some who are down-trodden. All their names were collected from the various provinces and put into one category "Scheduled Castes". In spite of the category being a fiction it has been there for so many years. Let us look at the way these castes are represented. There are hundreds of castes included in the List, but if you look at their representation in every province you will find that only one or two castes are represented. Those who have got predominance are mostly Chamars, I would say. In the U.P. it is the case. It is the case in the Punjab also. I want to know how the Koris or the Pernas or the Korwas or the Dumnas have benefited by reservation. It is all a fiction, Sir. How is Dr. Ambedkar a member of the Scheduled Castes? Is he illiterate? Is he ill-educated? Is he an untouchable? Is he lacking in anything? He is the finest of the fine intellectuals in India and still he is in the list of scheduled castes. Because he is in the list and because he is a genius, he will perpetually be member and also a Minister, he will always be their representative. Moreover, Sir, he has lately married a Brahmin wife. He is a Brahmin by profession and also because his in-laws are Brahmins. They are others like my Friend, Professor Yashwant Rai. What does he lack? There are thousands of Brahmins and Kshatriyas who are worse off than these friends belonging to the scheduled castes. So by the name of Scheduled Caste, persons who are living a cheerful life, and a selected few of these castes get benefit. This is no real representation. No caste ever gets benefit out of this reservation. It is the individual or the family which gets benefited. So, Sir, while we are doing away with representations and reservations, while we are doing away for good with this caste system, why should we allow it even for ten years? Does not our past experience show that out of the hundred and one scheduled castes only a few get any representation? Then why are so many castes linked with the chariot wheel of the Scheduled Castes? They are simply voters; they do not get any benefit, and even if any member of a caste in India comes up and gets elected how does the Community benefit, I do not understand. I could understand if instead of castes, classes were given reservations. To say that it should be a casteless society, I can understand. Society can be casteless, but society cannot be class-less. So long as the country does not decide to make the society class-less, classes must exist and therefore, classes must have their representation. Sir, to make the whole nation one party, I am afraid, will not be a practical idea. Minorities must exist and must be provided for. There will be no peace so long as minorities are not provided for. I do not believe in the minorities on community basis, but minorities must exist on economic basis, on political basis and on an ideological basis and those minorities must have protection. In this sort of a wholesale decision, the minorities will get little representation. I would suggest that in the place of the Scheduled Caste, the landless labourers, the cobblers or those persons who do similar jobs and who do not get enough to live, should be given special reservations. By allowing caste representations, let us not re-inject the poisonous virus which the Britisher has introduced into our body politic. I would suggest Sir, that instead of the so called Scheduled Caste, minorities be protected, if you like, on class basis. Let cobblers, washermen and similar other classes send their representatives through reservations because they are the one who do not really get any representation. As a matter of fact even after passing the motion which Sardar Patel has put before us, I am afraid the tiller of the soil will not as the conditions are get any representation. The villager is nowhere in the picture. It is the urban citizen alone who gets the protection. It is not the toilers of the soil but the soilers of toil who are benefited. Persons who irrigate paper with black ink get the representation and not those who irrigate the land. These literate mediocres create fear and do nothing productive, but these tillers of the soil and producers of wealth are mostly those who are illiterate and therefore they are deprived of their due share of representation. Thus the nation is perpetually mis-represented by men of law, literature and letters. The `Pen' rules over the `Plough'. The creators of wealth are those who are without education and those persons will remain as such. They were slaves before and will remain slaves today and even after your passing this Constitution. If you want to help those down-trodden classes, then, Sir, the best thing would be to keep some safeguards for them. We should forge a law which would bring those illiterates into this House. As a matter of fact there is hardly a single Kisan member of the Constituent Assembly of the type of which 80 per cent of Kisans live in India. Unless those very Kisans come here as they are, India will not be properly represented. I therefore, submit, Sir, that the Scheduled Castes should now go and in place of Scheduled Caste, the words "Scheduled classes" be substituted so that we may not inadvertently perpetuate the communal slur on our Parliaments. In fact the Untouchables had only some social disabilities. Now all the Governments have passed enactments removing those social disabilities and among those persons who come here as the representatives, I fear, there is not one who has any social disability about him. The Scheduled Caste man can marry a Brahmin girl and there is no disability. I say, Sir, in the name of Scheduled Castes a few individuals are getting the benefit. Let the House dispassionately consider the situation as it is, take advantage of the experience that we have gained for the last so many years of what the `Scheduled Castes' have actually meant. And then make up our mind as to whether or not we could substitute this communal representation by giving reservations to classes who would mostly be the same voters but with a better title and a healthier outlook.

An H

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. President: Then there is the amendment which was moved by Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava.

Pandit Balkrishna Sharma (United Provinces: General): I think the mover accepts the amendment.

The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel: Yes, Sir, I accept the amendment.

Mr. President: The question is;

"That the following be added to the Motion:-

"The provisions for reservation of seats and nominations will last for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution.'"

The amendment was adopted.

14 october 1949

Shri Brajeshwar Prasad

: Let me explain. History is made. by,, the wrongdoer and the oppressed. It was wrong on the part of the wronged to submit to oppression. If objection is raised that they were not in a position to organise, we also will say that it was due to lack;,-of political consciousness, due to lack or social sense that these things were perpetrated, It was the institution, it was society itself that was responsible. It was the time spirit and the time spirit alone that responsible for the wrong done to the Scheduled Castes and the Tribals. The Castes Hindus are not :responsible for any wrong. We, have also suffered, because Caste Hindus have, also. been exploitrated by people living in this country and wrong have been committed land perpetrated upon us. For centuries, India was under foreign subjection. It, was subject to foreign intervention and Foreign oppressions from times immemorial, The Castes Hindus have never flourished. It is wrongs, it is atrocious to throw all blame and responsibility on the Caste Hindus, they have been victims of circumstances. I cannot accept the proposition that the Caste Hindus have perpetrated any wrong on anybody.

I am quite clear in my own mind that if we do not take a bold stand at this moment and clearly lay down the principle that the basis of a secular State shall not be allowed to be corrupted by any other consideration, the, future of this country is dark. I hold the opinion that those persons who are clamouring for these seats, for reservation, for consideration, represent a handful of people, constituting the cream of the Harijan society. They constitute the politically powerful group among the Tribals and the Scheduled Castes. I do not think that these claims and demands touch the broad classes of people within the Scheduled Castes and Tribals. Job-hunting does not affect the problems that confront us as far as the question of Scheduled Castes and Tribes is concerned. It is by as simulating ourselves and by integrating all the communities in one nation that there can be any peace and progress in this country. I do not want that the politics of the Muslim League should be re-enacted again on the political arena. The whole purpose of my amendment is to strengthen the foundations of the state. It has been the central the me of the speeches that have delivered here in this Assembly. I have moved my amendment so that the interests of the State may be protected.

27 august 1947

Shri V. I. Muniswami Pillai (Madras : General)

Often it is said though the Depressed Classes have the required qualification, under some pretext or other they are not given chances in the service

30 november 1948

Shri R. M. Nalavade (Bombay: General):

Our experiencein the provinces, though there are provisions forreservation in the services, is bitter. Even though thedepressed classes are educated and qualified, they are notgiven chances of employment under the ProvincialGovernments. Now that we have provided for this in the Constitution itself, there is no fear for the Scheduled castes. According to this clause we can be adequatelyrepresented in the provincial as well as in the Centralservices. I therefore support this clause on behalf of thedepressed classes.

30 november 1948

Shri H. J. Khandekar

The condition of thescheduled castes has been explained by many friends who madetheir speeches in the House. The condition is so deplorablethat though the candidates of the scheduled castes apply forcertain Government posts, they are not selected for theposts because the people who select the candidates do notbelong to that community or that section. I can give so manyinstances about this because I have got the experience fromall provinces of the country that the scheduled caste peoplethough they are well qualified do not get opportunity andfair treatment in the services

30 november 1948

Shri Santanu Kumar Dass (Orissa: General):

You know that there aremany vacancies in the Railway and Postal Departments. Theseposts are advertised. We receive interview letters and ourcandidates come from distant places for interview, but theircases are not at all considered and they are totallyignored, whereas those who have been working as apprenticesare selected as they have a strong backing from theirdepartments. What do we gain by these advertisements? Whenthere is a chance we are ignored. Then, why do you advertiseat all?

Seth damodar swarup

Has just said that there isno need for reservations as public service

Commission wouldsecure impartiality. But in this connection i would like

Topoint out that though there is a public service commission,and candidates

Appear at its examination and many of thosewho qualify appear in the lists,

Yet when there is a chanceof filling posts those who have not even appeared at

Theexamination are taken in. How does it happen? It happensbecause such people

Have a strong backing which enables themto get selected. I am afraid the

Continuation of publicservice commissions would be of no use for us.

Constitutional assembly members who opposed reservation

Amendment by thakur das bhrgav that reservation will be only for ten yea

r26 may 1949

Mr. President: Then there is the amendment which was moved by Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava.

Pandit Balkrishna Sharma (United Provinces: General): I think the mover accepts the amendment.

The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel: Yes, Sir, I accept the amendment.

Mr. President: The question is;

"That the following be added to the Motion:-

"The provisions for reservation of seats and nominations will last for a period of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution

The amendment was adopted

Amendment by km munshi and shibban lal saxena that only hindu will get sc benefit

27 august 1947

That from group C of the Schedule to para 1, the words "7 Scheduled castes" be deleted.

"........ if any vacancy occurs among the seat, allotted to the minorities, I shall naturally consult both the main parties before filling it."

Shri K. M. Munshi (Bombay: General) : Sir, because amendment No. 85 has been moved by Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena I move the amendment standing in my name:-

"That in amendment No. 85 of List III, dated 26th August 1947, the words "7. Scheduled Castes" be deleted and the following para. be added after para :-

Mahaveer tyagi opposed reservation

Mahaveer tyagi on 26 may 1949

You will see, Sir, that when the idea of giving separate reservation to the scheduled castes was first introduced, the intention was that it should last only for twenty years. After that period they were expected to become absolutely one with the Hindus. It was in the year 1933 and now it is 1949. So it is only a few years less than twenty. According to the old scheme of the British Government reservation for the Scheduled Castes should go in 1952, why are we now giving it a further lease of ten years? Again, Sir, if we look at the list of Scheduled Castes, there are so many included in it. We have had the experience of separate reservation for Scheduled Castes. Fasts must be faced as they are. The term "Scheduled Castes" is a fiction. Factually there is no such thing as `Scheduled Castes'. There are some castes who are depressed, some castes who are poor, some who are untouchables,some who are down-trodden. All their names were collected from the various provinces and put into one category "Scheduled Castes". In spite of the category being a fiction it has been there for so many years. Let us look at the way these castes are represented. There are hundreds of castes included in the List, but if you look at their representation in every province you will find that only one or two castes are represented. Those who have got predominance are mostly Chamars, I would say. In the U.P. it is the case. It is the case in the Punjab also. I want to know how the Koris or the Pernas or the Korwas or the Dumnas have benefited by reservation. It is all a fiction, Sir. How is Dr. Ambedkar a member of the Scheduled Castes? Is he illiterate? Is he ill-educated? Is he an untouchable? Is he lacking in anything? He is the finest of the fine intellectuals in India and still he is in the list of scheduled castes. Because he is in the list and because he is a genius, he will perpetually be member and also a Minister, he will always be their representative. Moreover, Sir, he has lately married a Brahmin wife. He is a Brahmin by profession and also because his in-laws are Brahmins. They are others like my Friend, Professor Yashwant Rai. What does he lack? There are thousands of Brahmins and Kshatriyas who are worse off than these friends belonging to the scheduled castes. So by the name of Scheduled Caste, persons who are living a cheerful life, and a selected few of these castes get benefit. This is no real representation. No caste ever gets benefit out of this reservation. It is the individual or the family which gets benefited. So, Sir, while we are doing away with representations and reservations, while we are doing away for good with this caste system, why should we allow it even for ten years? Does not our past experience show that out of the hundred and one scheduled castes only a few get any representation? Then why are so many castes linked with the chariot wheel of the Scheduled Castes? They are simply voters; they do not get any benefit, and even if any member of a caste in India comes up and gets elected how does the Community benefit, I do not understand. I could understand if instead of castes, classes were given reservations. To say that it should be a casteless society, I can understand. Society can be casteless, but society cannot be class-less. So long as the country does not decide to make the society class-less, classes must exist and therefore, classes must have their representation. Sir, to make the whole nation one party, I am afraid, will not be a practical idea. Minorities must exist and must be provided for. There will be no peace so long as minorities are not provided for. I do not believe in the minorities on community basis, but minorities must exist on economic basis, on political basis and on an ideological basis and those minorities must have protection. In this sort of a wholesale decision, the minorities will get little representation. I would suggest that in the place of the Scheduled Caste, the landless labourers, the cobblers or those persons who do similar jobs and who do not get enough to live, should be given special reservations. By allowing caste representations, let us not re-inject the poisonous virus which the Britisher has introduced into our body politic. I would suggest Sir, that instead of the so called Scheduled Caste, minorities be protected, if you like, on class basis. Let cobblers, washermen and similar other classes send their representatives through reservations because they are the one who do not really get any representation. As a matter of fact even after passing the motion which Sardar Patel has put before us, I am afraid the tiller of the soil will not as the conditions are get any representation. The villager is nowhere in the picture. It is the urban citizen alone who gets the protection. It is not the toilers of the soil but the soilers of toil who are benefited. Persons who irrigate paper with black ink get the representation and not those who irrigate the land. These literate mediocres create fear and do nothing productive, but these tillers of the soil and producers of wealth are mostly those who are illiterate and therefore they are deprived of their due share of representation. Thus the nation is perpetually mis-represented by men of law, literature and letters. The `Pen' rules over the `Plough'. The creators of wealth are those who are without education and those persons will remain as such. They were slaves before and will remain slaves today and even after your passing this Constitution. If you want to help those down-trodden classes, then, Sir, the best thing would be to keep some safeguards for them. We should forge a law which would bring those illiterates into this House. As a matter of fact there is hardly a single Kisan member of the Constituent Assembly of the type of which 80 per cent of Kisans live in India. Unless those very Kisans come here as they are, India will not be properly represented. I therefore, submit, Sir, that the Scheduled Castes should now go and in place of Scheduled Caste, the words "Scheduled classes" be substituted so that we may not inadvertently perpetuate the communal slur on our Parliaments. In fact the Untouchables had only some social disabilities. Now all the Governments have passed enactments removing those social disabilities and among those persons who come here as the representatives, I fear, there is not one who has any social disability about him. The Scheduled Caste man can marry a Brahmin girl and there is no disability. I say, Sir, in the name of Scheduled Castes a few individuals are getting the benefit. Let the House dispassionately consider the situation as it is, take advantage of the experience that we have gained for the last so many years of what the `Scheduled Castes' have actually meant. And then make up our mind as to whether or not we could substitute this communal representation by giving reservations to classes who would mostly be the same voters but with a better title and a healthier outlook.

Shri brajeshwar Prasad opposed reservation

14 october 1949

Shri Brajeshwar Prasad

: Let me explain. History is made. by,, the wrongdoer and the oppressed. It was wrong on the part of the wronged to submit to oppression. If objection is raised that they were not in a position to organise, we also will say that it was due to lack;,-of political consciousness, due to lack or social sense that these things were perpetrated, It was the institution, it was society itself that was responsible. It was the time spirit and the time spirit alone that was responsible for the wrong done to the Scheduled Castes and the Tribals. The Castes Hindus are not :responsible for any wrong. We, have also suffered, because Caste Hindus have, also. been exploitrated by people living in this country and wrong have been committed land perpetrated upon us. For centuries, India was under foreign subjection. It, was subject to foreign intervention and Foreign oppressions from times immemorial, The Castes Hindus have never flourished. It is wrongs, it is atrocious to throw all blame and responsibility on the Caste Hindus, they have been victims of circumstances. I cannot accept the proposition that the Caste Hindus have perpetrated any wrong on anybody.

Nagappa and ambedkar proposed that 35% sc vote should be necessary to win a sc seat

S nagappa on 28 august 1947

That was opposed by several member citing is divisive idea

28 AUGUST 1947

Shrimati Dakshayani Velayudan (Madras: General)

28 AUGUST 1947

Mr. H. J. Khandekar:

-------------------------------------------------------- *[English translation of Hindustani speech.

Finaly sardar patel condemned this idea of ambedkar and nagappa

28 august 1947

When sardar became harsh nagappa withdrew his

amendment

28 august 1947

Mr. President: I have first to put the amendment of Mr. Nagappa.

Shri S. Nagappa: I do not press my amendment. I withdraw it.

Mr. President: Does the House give him leave to withdraw his amendment ?

Honourable Members: Yes.

The amendment was, by leave of the Assembly, withdrawn.

sardar said big reservation is of assembly and pitty is of service and how sikhs can be untouchable

14 october 1949 patel

When the Minorities Committee in the Advisory Committee passed its first decisions, I was appointed Chairman and I took all the minorities with me and the decisions of the Minorities Committee and the Advisory Committee were almost unaimous. This House appreciated the work of these Committees and congratulated me on that. Time went on and the minorities themselves began to feel that we should reconsider our decision and, headed by the great patriotic Christian leader, they brought in a Resolution that they want to give up the reservations. And what reservations?- Not this Petty reservation of minorities in the services-but the big reservations in the Assemblies, both in the Centre and in the provinces.

They agreed to have joint electorates and to have nothing. to do with this communal separatism. When they desired that, I called a meeting of the minorities Committee and the Advisory Committee. At their instance decisions were taken. The Sikh stand has always been that "if all minorities agreed, we are also agreeable. Wo do not want any special arrangement. We do not want any advantage. We are able to stand on our own legs"'. 'Mat was their stand throughout, in the Congress and outside the Congress.

When this resolution was brought, and this question was about to be considered, the Sikh representatives of the Punjab came to me and they said that so far as the Scheduled Caste Sikhs are concerned, they should be treated separately and given the same advantage that was being given to the Hindu Scheduled Castes. The Scheduled Castes objected to a man that these art not Scheduled Castes, and if they are Scheduled Castes, then they are not Sikhs. Therefore, they said, "you cannot give them separate treatment. There are forcible conversions being made from the Scheduled Castes to the Sikhs for this purpose". That was their grievance. On the other side, the Sikhs said that they had converted so many and it was not by force. "They have come to our fold", they said, "and if you do not recognise these concessions, then they will all go back to the Scheduled Caste Hindus and we will lose Now, it was against our conviction to recognise a separate Sikh caste as untouchables or Scheduled Castes, because untouchability is not recognised in the Sikh religion. A Scheduled Caste Sikh community has never been in the past recognised. But as the Sikhs began to make a grievance continuously against the Congress- and against us, I persuaded the Scheduled Caste people with great difficulty to agree to this for the sake of peace. I persuaded the other members of the Advisory Committee on the condition, which is in writing by the representatives of the Sikhs, that they will raise no other question hereafter.

Then in the Advisory Committee, when this question came, Sardar Ujjal Singh raised the question, "What about the Services" ? I said, "Your representatives have given in writing that no other question hereafter is to be raised" Giani Kartar Singh was also in the Advisory Committee, and he got up and said, "No, we will settle it in the Provinces. It is not to be raised here."

What is the use of charging the Congress with having broken promises ? Do not break the promises that you have given, and do not charge others with breach of promises. If you now say, as Sardar Hukam Singh says, that these people were anxious to serve an advantage for the Scheduled Caste Sikhs and they may have agreed to this, but it is a mistake, then if it is a mistake, reconsider your position, and I shall reconsider mine. Take away that concession and remove it, and you get your pound of flesh, if you want it.

What is it that you get in the Services? Even at present, what do the Sikhs do ? What do other communities do ? So far as the Services are concerned, for all major posts or all posts which go by competitive examinations there is no reservation on communal grounds. They go to the Public Service Commission. You are quarrelling or asking for the minor posts-Chaprasis and clerks. Is it the Sikh position now that we have not got enough Sikh Chaprasis and clerks ? Are you going to raise the community in that manner ? If that is so, tell me, and If you leave what you have got for the Scheduled Castes, I shall persuade the Constituent Assembly to give you what you want, but you will repent afterwards.

You say, in PEPSU it is not the arrangement. But this is not the House to bear that complaint. If there is any such complaint, send it to us. We shall consider about it. But do not go behind, your pledged words and charge people with breach of promises or pledges. We are not the people to pledges. Every sympathy and every consideration will be shown to the Sikh community because it is located in a particular area ; it is a small community, and yet it is brave, virile and it can stand on its own against anybody. Do not break that spirit by continuously saying, "We are injured, we are helpless, we are-in a minority, we are hopeless, we cannot do anything."

That kind of psychology will injure the community itself and not others, and injuring the community means injuring the nation. It is not as a representative of the majority community that I give this advice, but as a well wisher of the Sikh community, I advise you not to create this atmosphere by saying continually, "we are badly treated, badly treated". If you do, then it is the Sikh community that will be hurt.

When the Advisory Committee took this decision to give up reservation, we clearly understood the position and all communities clearly understood it. When the decision of the Advisory Committee came before this House for its acceptance, I made it clear that this Constitution of India, of free India, of a secular State will not hereafter be disfigured by any provision on a communal basis. It was accepted with acclamation.

It is said that if you make any arrangements in the Provinces, then the provisions of the Constituent Assembly with regard to fundamental rights will come in the way. Let me tell you, nothing comes in the way where arrangements are made by mutual agreement, and without mental reservations. That provision in the fundamental rights is provided for an individual who is injured But if you make domestic arrangements in the Punjab between community and community for the small posts, then who is going to question that ? But first create an atmosphere for adjustment of such 'things in your Province. It is tile continued atmosphere of quarrel between two communities that has created distrust among them, and that creates difficulties. You will have our support and sympathy continuously in that Province because that Province has suffered most. It is injured and the wounds have not yet healed. It is for us all, and for you particularly, to help us in healing the wounds. Therefore, let us make a united effort to raise the morale of that Province, the strength of that Province, which really is at the top of India, where the border is. Then you will have no complaint at all.

After all, what is the Sikh community backward in ? Is it backward in trade ? Is it backward in industry, or commerce or in anything ? Why do you consider yourselves to be backward ? Therefore, forget that psychology. If there is any injustice done, then come to us, we will see that no injustice is done.

Sardar

30 november 1948

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: Mr. Vice-President, Sir, Iam afraid I am in a position of disadvantage, coming as I doafter Mr. Munshi, whom the House knows as a very learnedlawyer. I now see that his technique in advocacy is toconfuse the judge, as--if I had heard him aright--he musthave confused the minds of those Members of this House whohad some doubts in regard to the provisions of article 10.Sir, I was reading recently in a newspaper the comments onthis Constitution by a celebrated author ity--Prof. IvorJennings. Vice-Chancellor of the Ceylon University--and hecharacterises this chapter of fundamental rights as aparadise for lawyers. And, as a piece of loose drafting,article 10 takes the palm. My own view, if I may bepermitted to state it, is that this article had better notfind a place in this Chapter on Fundamental Rights.

Let me take clause (1): "There shall be equality ofopportunity for all citizens in matters of employment underthe State." What class of citizens? Literates? Illiterates? Could an illiterate file a suit before the Supreme Court alleging that he has been denied equality ofopportunity? This is not my own view. This is a statement of the view which I found expressed in Professor Jennings'criticism.

I now move on to clause (2). I am afraid this House hasbeen put to a lot of trouble merely because of the attemptto accommodate my Honourable Friend Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoorby including the word `residence' in this clause after theword `birth'. This has been beginning of all the trouble. Wehave had an amendment by Shri K. M. Munshi and another byShri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar. Is it at all necessary toinclude the word `residence?' I put it to the House that it is not necessary, because if there is discrimination becauseof `residence' as there may be, you are not going to coverit up by putting it in here and taking it out in clause 2(a).

An Honourable Member: Delete 2 (a) then.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: That is a matter for theHouse. But I suggest to the House that we can be impartialin this matter. We shall deny Mr. Jaspat Roy Kapoor theright to put in `residence' and we shall deny Shri AlladiKrishnaswami Ayyar the occasion to bring in an explanatorysub-clause which would whittle down the concession given asmuch as possible.

Now let us turn to the wording of the particularamendment moved by Shri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyar on whichmy Honourable Friend Mr. Munshi dilated at length. Sir, as Isaid before, I am not presuming to give any advice on thematter. Let us see what the Parliament is going to do? Is itgoing to pass a comprehensive law covering the needs of allthe States, all the local bodies, all the village panchayats(which will also be States under the definition in Article7) and all the universities? Or, is it going to enact freshlegislation as and when occasion arises and as and when aparticular local body or university or village panchayatasks for special exemption? Nothing is known as to what isnaturally contemplated. We do not know what procedure isgoing to be laid down for this purpose, and this clause isso beautifully vague that we do not know whether Parliamentis at all going to be moved in the matter for acomprehensive piece of legislation. Even then what is thetype of legislation it could enact?

The proposal of my friend Shri Jaspat Roy can benullified if Parliament decides that there should beresidence of at least ten years before a person can qualifyfor an officer in the area. Or, is Parliament going to putdown one year or is it going to cover the position ofrefugees by putting in six months or nothing at all? My ownview is that, instead of putting in a clause like 2

(a)which is so vague,--the doubt raised by my friend Mr. Kamathis quite right--we can safely trust the good sense ofParliament. We are leaving the whole thing to the good senseof Parliament, the legislatures, the Supreme Court and theadvocates who will appear before that Court when we enactthis Constitution in the manner in which it has beenpresented to us. I am afraid there must be some region whereyou must leave it to the good sense of some people, becausewe are here trying to prevent the good sense of people fromnullifying the ideas which we hold today.

Sir, the amendment of Shri Alladi Krishnaswami Ayyarsays: ".....under any State for the time being specified in the First Schedule or any local or other authority withinits territory, any requirement as to residence within thatState prior to such employment or appointment." I cannotreally understand where any State comes in here, even afterhearing the very able advocacy and admirable advocacy ofShri Munshi in support of the amendment. I suggest that boththe ammendments be dropped. If any particular Statedisregards our views and insists on residentialqualification it would not matter very much.

I now come to clause (3). Quite a number of friendsobjected to the word `backward' in this clause. I have nodoubt many of them have pointed out that when this House took a decision in this regard in thisparticular matter on a former occasion the word `backward'did not find a place. It was an after-thought which thecumulative wisdom of the Drafting Committee has devised for the purpose of anticipating the possibility of thisprovision being applied to a large section of the community.

May I ask who are the backward class of citizens? Itdoes not apply to a backward caste. It does not apply to aScheduled caste or to any particular community. I say thebasis of any future division as between `backward' and`forward' or non-backward might be in the basis of literacy.If the basis of division is literacy, 80 per cent. of ourpeople fall into the backward class citizens. Who is goingto give the ultimate award? Perhaps the Supreme Court. Itwill have to find out what the intention of the framers wasas to who should come under the category of backwardclasses. It does not say `caste.' It says `class.' Is it aclass which is based on grounds of economic status or ongrounds of literacy or on grounds of birth? What is it?

My honourable Friend Mr. Munshi thinks that this wordhas fallen from heaven like manna and snatched by theDrafting Committee in all their wisdom. I say this is aparadise for lawyers. I do not know if the lawyers who havebeen on the Committee have really not tried to improve thebusiness prospects of their clan and the opportunities of their community or class by framing a constitution so fullof pitfalls.

Shri K. M. Munshi: Well, my honourable friend canattempt to become a lawyer.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: I am afraid I may have to,when people like Mr. Munshi desert the profession for othermore lucrative occupations. If my friend wants me to saysomething saucy I can tell him that I could attempt that anddo some justice to it.

Shri K. M. Munshi: You can, I know.

Shri T. T. Krishnamachari: I must apologise to you, Mr.Vice-President, for carrying on a conversation with Mr.Munshi notwithstanding the fact that he has beenprovocative. Anyhow the subject is not one which merits suchsallies.

Sir, coming back to the merits of clause (3) my feelingis that this article is very loosely worded. That the word`backward' is liable to different interpretations is thefear of some of my friends, though I feel that there is noneed for such fear, because I have no doubt it is going to be ultimately interpreted by the Supreme author ity on somebasis, caste, community, religion, literacy or economicstatus. So I cannot congratulate the Drafting Committee onputting this particular word in; whatever might be theimplication they had in their mind, I cannot help feelingthat this clause will lead to a lot of litigation.

Sir, before I sit down I would like to put before theHouse a suggestion not to block the issue further either byadmitting the amendment of Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor or, as asequel to it, the amendment of Shri Alladi Krishnaswami

26 may 1949

The Honourable Sardar Vallabhbhai J. Patel (Bombay: General):Sir, when I was first appointed Chairman of the Advisory Committee on Minorities, I really trembling and I took up the jobs with a heavy heart, because I felt the task was immensely difficult, owing to the history of the past so many years of foreign rule.

There was a difference of opinion from some progressive nationalist-minded leaders, such as Dr. Mookherjee who from the beginning opposed any kind of reservation or safeguards. I am sure he will be happy today to find that his ambition is being fulfilled.

27 august 1949 hc mukherji who oppesd

Dr. H. C. Mookherjee (West Bengal: General): Mr. President, I must say at the beginning, that I am not one of those who believe that the greatness of a country is increased by increasing the greatness or the economic or political importance of a particular group which is inside it.

On the other hand, I have always advocated the placing of national interests above group interests. At the same time, my experience as Chairman of the Minorities Sub-Committee has convinced me that it was necessary for the sake of peace,, for the sake of the future progress of our country, that every attempt should be made to meet the wishes of the minorities. I am a member of a minority community myself and I feel proud that the community of which I am a member has decided to give up all special privileges, and first of all I must thank my colleagues of my community who are members and who are present here today. Along with that it was realised that the several groups had distrust of the majority. Of course, personally speaking, I noticed that this was true of a majority among them and I have exhorted them and I am still exhorting them, again and again, to have some measure of trust. if they demand safeguared, those safeguards can be implemented only if the majority community can be trusted. But till this distrust is removed, I do recognise that something has to be done to meet their wishes. It is here that I must compliment Mr. Munshi, who in the Minorities SubCommittee did so much' running from one group to another, in order to find their minimum demands, then pressing their case on the attention of the Minorities Committee and who got them carried in the Advisory Committee. I must bear witness to the goodwill and generosity that was shown to us by Sardar Patel. I therefore recommend the findings of the Advisory Committee to the House. At the same time, personally speaking, I must make it clear once more that I stand for trust of the majority and that I feel that some among us who stood for a more radical policy, have a kind of grievance against Sardar Patel because he has not allowed us freedom to carry it out thought, I also admit that we were defeated by a majority of the members.

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raw material on constitunal debate

Constitutional assembly members who opposed reservation

Amendment by km munshi and shibban lal saxena that only hindu will get sc benefit

Mahaveer tyagi opposed reservation

Shri brajeshwar Prasad opposed reservation

Nagappa and ambedkar proposed that 35% sc vote should be necessary to win a sc seat

Finaly sardar patel condemned this idea of ambedkar and nagappa

When sardar became harsh nagappa withdrew his

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